Michael and Christa return with the second part of their conversational recap on the three powers. This one covers the evil of diets and the moral limitations of your survival instinct, the nature of truth and fact, the age of the Spirit and the reformation of the affections, and more.
LINKS
Ep. 20: Good and Evil, Righteousness and Wickedness
Second-Order Cybernetic Philosophy (Super Observer concept)
Black Swan, by Nassim Taleb
Nobel Speech (1970), by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
TRANSCRIPT
00:00:01:01 – 00:00:10:02
Michael
This is episode 22 of the Nothing Human podcast. Nothing Human Conversations: Three Powers Recap with Christa: Part Two.
00:00:10:05 – 00:00:31:18
Michael
And he says to his disciples, hey, do you see this righteousness of the Pharisees? This this like meticulous box-checking that they do? If your righteousness doesn’t exceed, exceed, that righteousness, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. So, I mean, he just calls it out. It’s like, this is fake. This isn’t real. This is superficial,
00:00:31:20 – 00:00:31:29
Christa
Right.
00:00:32:00 – 00:00:44:03
Michael
You think it’s always right to fast? You’re wrong. Why do your disciples feast when we’re all fasting? Well, because my disciples don’t love evil.
00:00:55:24 – 00:01:30:12
Michael
Welcome to the Nothing Human podcast, a biblically informed thinkspace for exploring and articulating all the ways we make or break sense of human experience. I’m your host, Michael Minkoff. From my youngest days, I’ve been fascinated with categories of thought those often unconscious filing mechanisms that invisibly populate our premises, direct our inquiries, and ordain our conclusions. Join me as we investigate and interrogate our assumptions in an effort to articulate a more cohesive understanding of human information within the superstructure of God’s truth.
00:01:30:15 – 00:03:16:04
Michael
Well, this is the second of a few more of these that are going to be coming up, which are conversations that I’m having with Christa about the three power series. If you haven’t listened to the first part of this conversation, you can go ahead and listen to that. It’s episode 21, and if you haven’t listened to the 15 episodes on the Three Powers with the attending five extra episodes, etc., you can check those out as well. All of the episodes of the Nothing Human podcast and my bonus podcast Being Something Extra are available on my website, NothingHumanPodcast.com. You can also leave a comment or ask a question on my website on the relevant episode. Just navigate over to Nothing Human podcast.com and leave your question or comment on the relevant episode. And I would really appreciate if you all would support me on Patreon. It’s $5 a month or $60 a year. That’s really helpful for us, for my family, so that I can make this sustainable and justify all the time I’m spending on this. And it’s also the case that if you want to support me in other ways, and you don’t necessarily want to give every month, if you could rate or review this podcast on whatever podcast platform you’re using right now, that would be really helpful. If you’re listening to this right now and you want to watch me and Christa talk, I’m currently recording video right now, and we have video for all of these conversation episodes, so you can either see that on YouTube, on my YouTube channel, and like and subscribe and all that stuff on that. And you can also go and watch this on Spotify. Spotify has a video capacity. So I think that’s pretty much it for the preliminaries on this. Let’s go ahead and get into my second part of conversation with Christa on the Three Powers recap.
00:03:16:06 – 00:03:24:02
Christa
All right. So I’m gonna get my thing. This is episode six.
00:03:24:04 – 00:03:25:24
Michael
On the will.
00:03:25:26 – 00:04:09:24
Christa
Yes. You talk about that the body on its own terms is tuned to survival. So its inherent morality cannot transcend good and evil. I well, I had, I put this in there. This is really … I mean it could be relevant, but I did a five day cleansing fast. You know, I don’t know if told you about that. And I would wake up, and I would be like ravenously hungry because our bodies are tuned for survival. And so we … that’s the hunter, you know, mode. Go out or whatever. And, anyway, that’s what I thought of when when you said that the body was tuned to survival. Yeah. Are we good?
00:04:09:27 – 00:04:11:12
Michael
Yeah. Okay.
00:04:11:14 – 00:04:12:15
Christa
So.
00:04:12:17 – 00:04:14:12
Michael
She’s over here knocking her mic and stuff.
00:04:14:15 – 00:04:16:19
Christa
Sorry, sorry. I’m trying not to.
00:04:16:20 – 00:04:19:02
Michael
It’s almost like you, like, don’t podcast all the time or something.
00:04:19:02 – 00:04:28:07
Christa
I don’t podcast at all, this will be my first time. So if you hear a knock on the mic, I’m sorry. I’m bad.
00:04:28:15 – 00:04:29:18
Michael
You’re good.
00:04:29:21 – 00:04:34:27
Christa
Maybe you can edit it out or something. Maybe with magic. I’ll try not to knock it anymore.
00:04:35:00 – 00:04:38:06
Michael
I am a sorcerer. I will. We’ll see.
00:04:38:09 – 00:04:52:17
Christa
Wizardry. All right. So, so explain that a little bit. Do you have anything else that you’d like to add to that? The body, on its own terms is tuned to survival. So its inherent morality cannot transcend good and evil.
00:04:52:19 – 00:05:32:09
Michael
Right. So the … I talked about it a little bit in a later episode when I was talking about the body versus the flesh and how the Scriptures talks about those things, especially in the New Testament. Because in the New Testament you have this word soma in the Greek that means body. And then you have the word sarx, which generally speaking, refers to flesh. Sometimes that’s used really simply in terms of, you know, “parents according to the flesh,” like your bodily parents. Right? But other times you … especially in Paul, he’s talking about the flesh set against the Spirit. And there’s obviously a moral charge there. This is not just a bodily reality. There’s some sort of like a principle.
00:05:32:11 – 00:05:33:11
Christa
So is that the different word “sarka.”
00:05:33:12 – 00:05:35:18
Michael
A spiritual princ— No, it’s still sarx.
00:05:35:22 – 00:05:36:05
Christa
Oh, okay.
00:05:36:08 – 00:07:14:28
Michael
Yeah. Which is what is really confusing to a lot of people. And it lent itself to a more Platonic view where the body bad, the spirit good. And, you know, so in some ways you have the ascetics and other, you know, monastic movements that say you have to discipline the body in order to really achieve moral virtue. That moral virtue is becoming more and more and more and more and more separated from the needs and desires of the body. Right? So even Aquinas is saying that the affections and the bodily appetites are not ultimately part of the intellectual life. You know, these kinds of things. Okay. So I disagree with that. But at the same time I … you’d have to be like, well, then why does Paul use that word to talk about the spiritual principle? If it’s not, you know, if the body is not bad, you know, there’s not a bad thing in the body, like, why would Paul use this word which refers to flesh and even just, like body, you know, meat? Why would he use that word if it doesn’t have some moral connotation? And it obviously does. Okay? So it’s like how do you how do you sort that? The way I sort it is with this—that the body’s only morality is survival. Its only intrinsic morality is survival. So if you think about how you’re functioning in the world, if all of your … if you’re only functioning biologically, then you’re oriented towards running from sticks and running towards carrots. You’re functioning basically animalistically.
00:07:15:00 – 00:07:15:10
Christa
Okay.
00:07:15:18 – 00:07:21:28
Michael
And that unfortunately is the source of most sin.
00:07:22:00 – 00:07:23:09
Christa
Sure. I mean, definitely.
00:07:23:10 – 00:08:17:26
Michael
So there is … because the … righteousness is choosing between goods and evils. Sometimes it is righteous to suffer harm. But the body will never say that. Do you see what I’m saying? Like the literal body will never say it is righteous to suffer harm. It will say, my principle is no harm. Avoid all harm. Seek all pleasure. That is my principle. And actually there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that. There isn’t. I mean it’s telling you what’s going on there. You know it’s like, “Hey we’re hungry. Will you please feed us?” But there are times when you have to say, “We are hungry, but we’re not going to eat.” There are times when you have to say, we’re not terribly hungry but we are going to eat, right?
00:08:17:29 – 00:08:18:14
Christa
Yeah.
00:08:18:17 – 00:08:39:15
Michael
There are times when that’s the case, like you went over to your grandma’s and she made, you know, more food than you, and you just ate a meal because you’re … you should have known before you went over your grandma’s that she was going to have food for you, but you’re not going to be rude toward her. And so you’re going to stuff your belly, right? In a way that would be totally and completely gluttonous and irresponsible in most circumstances. But in that circumstance is true righteousness.
00:08:39:17 – 00:08:45:00
Christa
You know, that was dad’s grandmother. She really did do that. She would she would continue to tell them to eat and eat and eat.
00:08:45:01 – 00:08:59:21
Michael
Yes. And you’re sick there. And if you were to do that to yourself in some like Roman vomitorium, anybody would call you a glutton. Right? But doing that at your, you know, Jewish grandmother’s house because she wants you to eat and that makes her feel loved.
00:08:59:22 – 00:09:00:27
Christa
Yes.
00:09:00:29 – 00:09:04:13
Michael
Well then that’s a righteous act, maybe, in that moment. Do you see what I’m saying?
00:09:04:14 – 00:09:04:23
Christa
I do.
00:09:04:27 – 00:09:38:17
Michael
That ultimately the problem with the bodily morality or the fleshly morality is that it can only say avoid harm, pursue pleasure. And there are many times when pursuing pleasure isn’t the right choice, and other times when pursuing harm isn’t the right choice, either for yourself or for others. But there are also circumstances where pursuing harm is the right choice, or risk is the right choice. Whereas you know, pursuing pleasure is also sometimes the right choice. If God says feast, you should feast. And it would be wrong if you didn’t. Right?
00:09:38:17 – 00:09:39:15
Christa
Right.
00:09:39:15 – 00:09:46:27
Michael
And so in those terms I would say like morality, the morality of righteousness is beyond the flesh.
00:09:47:00 – 00:09:47:09
Christa
Okay.
00:09:47:11 – 00:09:55:15
Michael
So, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t pertain to the flesh because it is still in the flesh that we perform righteousness.
00:09:55:19 – 00:09:56:21
Christa
Okay.
00:09:56:23 – 00:10:52:00
Michael
So, you know, whether we eat or drink or whatever we do, we do it to the glory of God. And, you know, and even in the final judgment, it’s really interesting. Jesus, is going to judge the deeds done in the body, whether good or evil. Now we tend to look at that and say, well, the good and evil are moral terms. I don’t think they are. I think that whether or not you choose good or whether or not you choose evil, God, Jesus is going to judge the deed you did in your body. So whether you eat or whether you drink, or whether you don’t eat, or whether you don’t drink, whether you kill, whether you refrain from killing, whether you, you know, build or break down whatever you choose to do, he is going to judge whether it is a good act or an evil act. He will judge it. Meaning whether it is a harmful act or an act toward the stick or a pleasurable act and act toward the carrot, he is going to judge. And …
00:10:52:00 – 00:10:53:11
Christa
I can see how that can be true.
00:10:54:29 – 00:11:35:10
Michael
Yeah. And I think that’s a really important aspect of morality because otherwise morality becomes superficial. So you have lots of people who have come to this conclusion that just like you know, it is always good to fast. It is not. Or it is always good to feast. It is not. It is always, you know, if it feels good, it must be wrong. You have a lot of people in the church who have come to that conclusion. In fact, I would say in that sense, the church is more filled with perverse people than outside the church because at least outside the church, they’re operating according to a fleshly, natural principle that makes sense.
00:11:35:13 – 00:11:35:29
Christa
Right.
00:11:36:01 – 00:11:46:11
Michael
But to love evil is perversity, which is why there’s more satanic behavior and satanic spirit within the church than outside of it.
00:11:46:14 – 00:11:47:06
Christa
That’s a statement.
00:11:47:12 – 00:12:20:28
Michael
Right. But if you’re saying fasting is in itself virtuous, you are closer to Satan. You are. You are closer to Satan because Satan hates the flesh. Satan hates life. Satan hates the body. He himself being a spirit. And he loves evil. So I mean Satan is 100% a fan of all evil all the time. So like if you’re saying that an evil, a harm—and a diet is an evil. In these terms, okay. If you, if you don’t understand what I’m saying you’re gonna have to listen to episode 20 and episode 6.
00:12:20:28 – 00:12:23:09
Christa
Do you hear that, folks? Diet is evil.
00:12:23:14 – 00:12:25:00
Michael
Diets actually are evil.
00:12:25:00 – 00:12:26:08
Christa
Don’t go on a diet. Yay! We have freedom.
00:12:26:11 – 00:12:35:18
Michael
But. But they can be a righteous evil. But they also could be an unrighteous evil. Right? Like they can …
00:12:35:18 – 00:12:35:27
Christa
I mean, anything.
00:12:36:04 – 00:12:57:24
Michael
Yeah. So, it’s any harm that you can do. Could be right. Could be wrong. You can’t judge it on the basis of the thing you’re doing itself. It’s about choices you’re making in reality. And that is … It’s like, oh man. Well then how do I determine what’s right and wrong? Well, you listen to God. That’s the whole point
00:12:57:25 – 00:12:58:06
Christa
Right.
00:12:58:06 – 00:13:33:20
Michael
is that you can’t actually achieve righteousness just by checking boxes. That’s the whole point. That’s Jesus’s whole point. Is that, oh, look at you guys who are checking all these boxes. You’re whitewashed tombs. You look great on the outside performing all these things you call righteous. But on the inside, you’re filled with dead man’s bones. And he says to his disciples, hey, do you see this righteousness of the Pharisees? Well, this, like, meticulous box-checking that they do. If your righteousness doesn’t exceed, exceed, that righteousness you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
00:13:33:22 – 00:13:38:29
Michael
So, I mean, he just calls it out. It’s like, this is fake. This isn’t real. This is superficial.
00:13:39:01 – 00:13:39:10
Christa
Right.
00:13:39:11 – 00:13:50:13
Michael
You think it’s always right to fast. You’re wrong. Why do your disciples feast when we’re all fasting? Well, because my disciples don’t love evil.
00:13:50:15 – 00:14:08:09
Christa
Right. I mean, it’s as simple as that. It’s as simple as that. All right. So, in the same episode, which should be episode, I don’t know, whatever. Episode seven. Now we’re on seven.
00:14:08:10 – 00:14:10:12
Michael
Okay. Okay. We’re we’re really making progress.
00:14:10:13 – 00:14:46:03
Christa
We’re making progress. The … this is on the intellect, and you make the statement that truth is beyond sensory perception. Please explain what you mean when you make this statement. Because later in the podcast, you say God is truth. So I would like to understand how these two ideas might connect. Okay. I have a little bit better understanding because of some things that we’ve talked about and even some of the earlier what we’ve talked about earlier, but I think it’s a good clarification. Just the phrase truth is beyond sensory perception. Yeah. I would like a little bit more elaboration on that.
00:14:46:10 – 00:15:28:27
Michael
Right. So to say that truth is beyond sensory perception is not to say that it doesn’t involve sensory perception. Okay? The senses can attain to the truth. It is possible. Meaning, you know, but I’ll just explain a little bit further. It’s the same thing like life as being the goal of the affections. Life is not merely a biological reality. In the same way, truth is not merely a biological reality. It is a biological sensory reality. In that I go around and I can collect data, and I’ve got senses to collect that data, and that data is limited. But maybe valid.
00:15:29:04 – 00:15:30:10
Christa
Sure.
00:15:30:12 – 00:17:01:14
Michael
But, the problem is, the truth must be much, much, much larger than anything I could ever experience in sensory terms. Even if I were to understand the entire reality, factually speaking, of the entire cosmos, which I think most of us can agree is beyond any of us. But even if I could understand even all of that, I still wouldn’t attain in that to God. So in those … in that sense, I think it’s important to understand that truth must be beyond sensory perception, because the truth has to come to you. And the truth is personal. It’s not an impersonal reality. It’s a personal reality. And it has to come to you. Because if you were to try to attain to the whole truth like you’re finite, I mean, I don’t know if you’re familiar with, like the … cybernetics, like philosophy. Cybernetic philosophy. So cybernetics is just theories of control. But they, they the … Norbert Wiener, who was one of the guys who who was the father, like, one of the pioneers of cybernetics philosophy. He has a really fascinating understanding of systems of observation. And so, like, science is all about, you know, objective sensory, you want to get distance from what you’re understanding in order to be able to kind of look at it neutrally. You know, we’re talking about like objective …
00:17:01:14 – 00:17:01:29
Christa
Right.
00:17:02:02 – 00:17:22:21
Michael
Well, Norbert Wiener comes in and he’s like, well, there’s a problem that, you know, if your system of observation is small, then you’re not getting enough information to know whether any of the things that you’ve collected are true. So, for instance, like there was a time when everybody thought swans were white because every swan they’d ever seen was white.
00:17:22:24 – 00:17:23:16
Christa
That was the data they collected.
00:17:23:18 – 00:17:52:01
Michael
That was the data they had collected. So that’s their pool of observation. Their system of observation is this big. Well, they stretched out that system of observation a little bit bigger. And I think in Australia they found some black swans. Okay. All right. All the sudden boom all your hundreds of years of data—garbage. Swans are not only white. They also can be black. And all it took in order to make that false was one piece of information that you just hadn’t gotten to, because your system of observation wasn’t large enough.
00:17:52:02 – 00:17:53:13
Christa
Right.
00:17:53:13 – 00:17:58:15
Michael
And how do we know that that’s not the case with every bit of our factualizations?
00:17:58:15 – 00:17:59:10
Christa
Exactly.
00:17:59:10 – 00:18:14:21
Michael
Where it’s like, well, the facts that we have determined up to this point have only confirmed this thought, this hypothesis, you know, that duh duh duh duh. All it would take, though to unconfirm this is one piece of information that we just haven’t found yet.
00:18:14:24 – 00:18:15:15
Christa
Right.
00:18:15:17 – 00:18:24:03
Michael
So that means that I can’t really rely on the limited system of observation as being like for certain.
00:18:24:06 – 00:18:24:16
Christa
Right.
00:18:24:17 – 00:18:33:16
Michael
Because if I just expand that a little bit. You know, I might include a piece of information that throws everything else I thought into question. Okay.
00:18:33:19 – 00:18:52:13
Christa
Can I pause right there? Because I kind of struggle that that’s what I’ve struggled with. In the past as far as truth goes. Because truth has been in our past years so coerced that that it wasn’t actual and not all of it was not truth. But there was there was some that was not truth.
00:18:52:15 – 00:18:52:23
Michael
Yeah.
00:18:52:24 – 00:19:16:26
Christa
And so that data point collection of what is truth. And then, you know, then all of a sudden you go to Australia and or New Zealand or whatever, and you find the black swan and then that brings in stuff. It’s almost created a sense of, such a sense of uncertainty that I’m like, forget it. I don’t even want to like the truth. What is truth? Like how? It’s just, I don’t know. I throw up my hands.
00:19:17:00 – 00:19:23:06
Michael
What that happened personally for you also happened philosophically for … I mean, that’s what post-modernism is.
00:19:23:13 – 00:19:23:23
Christa
Yeah.
00:19:23:24 – 00:19:46:26
Michael
It’s like because when you look at modernism and the enlightenment project and all that, there’s like there’s just, so much optimism. Oh, we’re just going to collect information and the truth just grows. It’s like, well, actually, that’s not how it works. How it works is that your preconceptions and your interpretations, they can be falsified by new information.
00:19:46:26 – 00:19:47:07
Christa
Right.
00:19:47:08 – 00:19:49:02
Michael
So everything is unstable.
00:19:49:05 – 00:19:57:02
Christa
So you’re not orienting yourself around your data points. You’re orienting yourself around the actual truth, like, you …
00:19:57:07 – 00:19:58:06
Michael
If there is one.
00:19:58:07 – 00:20:00:00
Christa
If there is one. But God is truth, like …
00:20:00:04 – 00:20:19:03
Michael
Exactly. And you have to believe that. And then you receive that. And because the problem that Norbert Wiener talked about is that even if your system of observation was as big as the universe, which no one’s is. Meaning, if you knew everything in the whole entire universe and you knew it for sure, and there wasn’t another piece of information to come in. This was Hegel’s idea of like the end of history.
00:20:19:04 – 00:20:19:12
Christa
Sure.
00:20:19:14 – 00:20:51:16
Michael
You know, like every piece of history has already come in. Every data point is collected. There’s nothing new to collect, right? He said, even if that were the case, there’d be one problem. You’re inside your system. So you are never outside the system to give it its full meaning because you’re always inside of it, meaning your interpretation of it is part of the uncertainty, and you can’t ever gain any neutrality from the whole system.
00:20:51:18 – 00:20:53:29
Christa
And this just makes me want to melt right into the floor.
00:20:54:00 – 00:21:24:05
Michael
Yeah yeah yeah. So … But what he said was … and he came up with this concept and I think he was probably a theist, but he came up with this concept that he calls the super observer, which is a theoretical concept of a person who has the capacity to interact with and understand our entire system of reality, but isn’t part of it. And he says that’s what’s necessary in order for knowledge to be possible.
00:21:24:08 – 00:21:25:05
Christa
Wow.
00:21:25:07 – 00:21:39:24
Michael
And since we know knowledge is possible, that was a belief he wasn’t willing to give up, because that’s that’s the problem with post-modernism and everything like that is they write like whole books about nothing means anything. And you’re like, why are you writing books then? I mean, you know what I mean?
00:21:39:24 – 00:21:41:23
Christa
The logical conclusion is don’t write books.
00:21:41:26 – 00:22:01:24
Michael
Don’t write books. Like, don’t worry about it. Like, forget it like, eat, drink and be merry, tomorrow you die kind of a thing. like, don’t … academics is dead. Who cares? Oh. It’s fun. You know, this is all just fun. It’s a game. It’s not a game. And this is a 400 page book that’s very hard to read. You know, if you’re … if all we’re looking for is fun, that’s not the books I want.
00:22:01:24 – 00:22:02:13
Christa
No.
00:22:02:15 – 00:23:25:10
Michael
Bring me more Doctor Seuss. Anyway, so. Yeah. So the issue being, if there isn’t any truth at all. Right? Then you can just be like, all right, well, who cares? But if you want to believe in truth and most people do. Most people can’t help it. Most people cannot help but say, hey, there are certain things that are true. There are certain things that I know. There are certain things that I want to be able to be certain of. Then you have to believe in this idea of a super observer, meaning there is a being who is both able to be contacting and knowing our system, our big system of the cosmos, but also isn’t part of it. And so he’s the creator, but he’s not created. That’s what’s necessary for there to be any possibility for knowledge. And since I believe in knowledge, right? So Norbert Wiener … this is how Albert Einstein, this is how Kurt Gödel, this is how Norbert Wiener—all geniuses, absolute geniuses—this is how they supported their belief in God. Is they said, before I know there’s a God, I know that the world is understandable. And in order for the world to be understandable, there has to be a God, because there has to be an observer outside of the creation, outside of the system, that is able to give it meaning. Or it has none.
00:23:25:13 – 00:23:26:15
Christa
Right.
00:23:26:17 – 00:24:33:07
Michael
And so they … it has no inherent meaning, which means it doesn’t have meaning. Because all that is just, you know, existentialism would say you just ascribe meaning, however it is. But it’s not any kind of a real meaning. But they believed in real meaning. Meaning they believed that you could understand even through sensory perception, what actually was happening or what was not happening. That was stable. In order for it to be stable, there had to be someone who ascribed meaning to it that wasn’t part of the system. And so that’s why they all believed in God. Now, they weren’t Christians, but they were all theists, right? That’s why they were theists. That’s why they believed in the idea of a divine creator. Anyway, so the the truth being, God is the truth, means that beyond just the truth being an impersonal set of objective data, I believe that the truth is personal and that’s a necessary idea in order for me to know it, because I’m finite. That’s the real problem. I’m limited. You’re limited. We’re all limited. So if we’re going to be able to have access to the truth, and I think I mentioned this in one of the podcast episodes, I can’t drink the ocean.
00:24:33:14 – 00:24:33:25
Christa
Right.
00:24:33:29 – 00:25:18:05
Michael
I can’t know everything that is to be known. So instead I have to have a personal relationship with the ocean. I’m touching it, I’m in it, I’m swimming in it. I’m contacting it that way. I can’t ever drink the whole thing. I’m just part. I’m inside of it. And so that’s why in the Scriptures, the proper human direction of knowledge was intimacy. So you … even in Genesis, where it says, like Adam knew his wife and she conceived the word yada, knowledge it like … it is there meaning intimacy, obviously. I mean, like he’s not … I guarantee you he’s not conceiving a child, you know, distant, objective, neutral, neutral observer.
00:25:18:06 – 00:25:19:24
Christa
Shaking their hands. Yeah, yeah. Oh, nice to know you.
00:25:19:27 – 00:25:27:00
Michael
You know, “Oh, sorry. We can’t touch. I’m trying to get some experimental data here.” You know, that’s not what’s happening
00:25:27:03 – 00:25:27:26
Christa
No.
00:25:27:26 – 00:25:43:27
Michael
And so in that sense that the very word “know” is so much … it implies intimacy. Because to the scriptural mindset, how could a limited, finite person know something without contacting it, you know, without coming into contact with it?
00:25:44:00 – 00:25:58:24
Christa
Right. Even the verse that says, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Right? That was Yada. I learned that from a book that I read, and I think that word yada is used over 900 times in the Old Testament is what this person who … was speaking about that.
00:25:58:24 – 00:26:02:28
Michael
That checks out. It’s used a lot.
00:26:03:01 – 00:26:06:10
Christa
Yeah, but it’s an intimate. It’s an intimate knowledge, and I
00:26:06:10 – 00:26:07:09
Michael
Yeah.
00:26:07:12 – 00:26:10:20
Christa
That’s an important fact.
00:26:10:23 – 00:26:31:18
Michael
So that’s some of what I mean by that. It’s much larger than that. But my main idea is that the truth is bigger than fact. The truth is beyond fact. In the same way that righteousness is beyond good and evil. And the same way that life is beyond biological subsistence. Right.
00:26:31:20 – 00:26:48:01
Christa
Yeah. I was watching a movie last night that was a Netflix movie. And the guy made the statement, there, there are facts and then there’s what’s true. And it was in relation I won’t go into the whole thing but I’ve been thinking about that. That kind of applies to what you’re saying.
00:26:48:01 – 00:26:48:17
Michael
Absolutely.
00:26:48:17 – 00:26:50:06
Christa
There are facts and then there’s what’s true.
00:26:50:09 – 00:26:56:21
Michael
Right. Well yeah. And I mean you got Mark Twain’s old thing, you know, like there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
00:26:56:22 – 00:26:57:11
Christa
Yes.
00:26:57:13 – 00:27:30:23
Michael
That, you know, even factual information because it has to be selected because it can’t be infinite. The selection is where the truth happens, or doesn’t. If you select it properly, and it is appropriate and fitting and applicable, then great. True. When you select it improperly and it’s not appropriate, it’s not fitting, and it’s not applicable, that’s a lie. I don’t care how factual it is. And we didn’t really even talk about this before. But you had mentioned racism and misogyny.
00:27:30:23 – 00:27:31:09
Christa
Right. Right.
00:27:31:10 – 00:28:15:18
Michael
Here’s an example where facts can be used to say something false, because there are all sorts of facts that you can bring to bear on … racists do all the time. They say, you know, that there are like, you know, the majority of prison populations are minorities. This is a fact, right? They all say that, you know, there’s a lot of fatherlessness in African-American communities, poverty, you know, poverty line, the IQ measurements, you know, they’ll look at all these statistics and, and they’ll say, oh, so clearly this means inferiority right? Now that’s a false statement.
00:28:15:24 – 00:28:17:01
Christa
You’re like, okay. How do you come to that?
00:28:17:03 – 00:29:03:00
Michael
But they’ll be like, well, I mean, facts don’t care about feelings. Okay. So like you can’t tell me that this isn’t the case. You know, if they’re … if they’ve got lower IQs and lower success rates and higher poverty and, you know, higher fatherlessness and more incarceration and more criminality, in what sense are they superior? Right? And I will be like in lots of senses. None of which you’re mentioning right now. Right? But if I were to say … if I were to go in and I’d be like, okay, I want you to live in this community and figure out how valuable you would be in this community, operating according to their standards and their priorities.
00:29:03:00 – 00:29:03:10
Christa
Right.
00:29:03:17 – 00:29:04:15
Michael
You wouldn’t last a week.
00:29:04:15 – 00:29:05:25
Christa
Nope.
00:29:05:28 – 00:29:23:07
Michael
So their priorities are different than yours. And so obviously their strength sets and weakness sets are going to be different than yours. But that doesn’t mean that there’s any intrinsic superiority. The only way you could say that that’s superior is it’s superior to you, because you’re judging according to you,
00:29:23:10 – 00:29:24:02
Christa
Correct.
00:29:24:04 – 00:29:33:07
Michael
But I would say you’re taking facts and you’re selecting the ones that fit with your agenda and with your particular already preconceived prejudices.
00:29:33:13 – 00:29:33:26
Christa
Right.
00:29:33:26 – 00:30:00:16
Michael
And then you’re going ahead and saying this is what these mean. Right? And you’re making general statements of what you would say is the truth, when in fact you’re speaking falsehood. And so that’s sort of that. And the same thing goes with misogyny. You know, it’s like, you know, WNBA, why do they even need a WNBA? You know, they could never compete against male basketball players. You know, it’s like, well, yeah, judged on male standards.
00:30:00:16 – 00:30:00:25
Christa
Sure.
00:30:00:25 – 00:30:20:19
Michael
That’s true. You know, but judged on female standards. You guys all you’re all terrible. So like you see what I’m saying. Like it’s just a matter of what you’re prioritizing and what strengths and what weaknesses you think are most important. But of course you would think your strengths are most important. That’s why you invest in them. That’s why you’re so strong in them, you know?
00:30:20:19 – 00:30:22:22
Christa
And it goes back to the uncomfortability
00:30:22:23 – 00:30:23:12
Michael
Yeah.
00:30:23:14 – 00:30:30:03
Christa
of approaching that area where you’re not strong in. You don’t even want to go there, I’m like. Oh, ooh, let’s close that door.
00:30:30:05 – 00:30:37:15
Michael
Right. And instead you’ll be like, oh, well, you think that, well, why don’t you come over here and try to gibberish Okay. gibberish And it just creates division.
00:30:37:15 – 00:30:38:05
Christa
It’s terrible.
00:30:38:05 – 00:31:12:00
Michael
It’s just dumb. At the end of the day, it’s like, well, I don’t … I don’t care. I don’t care. … For my whole life, people have thought that I am, you know, proud and whatnot. And I know that there are like lots of periods in my life when I, when I was proud, but I, I’m proud to say I’m not proud anymore. No. But, but a lot of the process of that, of gaining greater humility was understanding the value of other people on their own terms.
00:31:12:01 – 00:31:12:23
Christa
Yes.
00:31:12:26 – 00:31:20:27
Michael
That when I started to recognize that other people had different priorities, and that those priorities weren’t invalid simply because they weren’t mine,
00:31:21:01 – 00:31:21:20
Christa
Right.
00:31:21:22 – 00:31:32:04
Michael
then that really helped me to start saying, well, you’re … they’re really awesome. Like the people around me are. They have their own really awesome things that are really great that I could learn a lot from.
00:31:32:07 – 00:31:32:17
Christa
Right.
00:31:32:17 – 00:32:17:24
Michael
And that are benefiting me too. And invisibly benefiting me, because I’m not noticing them, because those are not the things that are most high on my priority list. But it doesn’t mean, you know … But I notice them when they’re gone, you know, and that’s really sad. It’s really sad. I’d much rather notice something while it’s here than notice it when … because it’s not there anymore. And so all those things that people do to benefit us, I think learning to recognize, oh look what you … look what you’re doing like and to see, you know, like to see all the things that other people are doing that are benefiting and that are valuable in the world, even if they’re not what you’re contributing to the world. I think I just think that’s an important part of growing in humility, but also having just a better life.
00:32:17:27 – 00:32:18:09
Christa
Yes.
00:32:18:09 – 00:32:27:04
Michael
I don’t know why people are so dedicated to being miserable. That’s what bothers me. It’s like people seem to be dedicated to being unhappy.
00:32:27:07 – 00:32:39:24
Christa
But it’s like a functional thing that it’s just like a process of this is what we’ve always done. There doesn’t need to be a change, and it’s working for me. I don’t care if you’re not benefiting from it, but it’s working for me.
00:32:39:27 – 00:32:41:10
Michael
But it’s not even working for them.
00:32:41:10 – 00:33:13:06
Christa
But but they don’t see it like you talked about the Super Observer. You can’t step outside of it. It’s very difficult for them to step outside. I’m not saying that they shouldn’t. I’m hoping that maybe even some of this podcast will help people to step outside of it. But, it’s I think it’s unfortunate because what it boils down to is actually even in the treatment of people and how we value or devalue people in society based on whatever function that they don’t have that you do have. Or whatever.
00:33:13:06 – 00:33:15:01
Michael
Or that they do have that you don’t have.
00:33:15:08 – 00:33:16:00
Christa
What, did I say it wrong? Sorry.
00:33:16:04 – 00:33:19:07
Michael
No, no, no, no. Either. I’m saying either way. It works either way.
00:33:19:09 – 00:33:58:20
Christa
So it’s just my hope is, is that we will start valuing people regardless if they don’t have the same, you know, powers have the same functions. That we will, like in John 17, when Jesus talks about the unity. That’s my my goal is for us to come together as churches, as people, groups, as even polar opposite, whatever our beliefs can we sit down and have conversations with people and walk away and still be friends like and still agree to disagree or whatever, you know, and coming to that platform. That’s so important to me.
00:33:58:23 – 00:34:46:21
Michael
Yeah, to me too. And I don’t think it’s all that outside of the realm possibilities. I just … it’s not probably a thing that’s going to, it can’t actually, happen in mass terms. Like it really is a work that individuals have to do in their particular communities and families and with their friends and stuff like that. Just to be like you make you make a difference. It is an interesting thing. I talked about it on the podcast that the the commands of God are always put in a single-person. He doesn’t give collective commands. It’s the same way, I mean, as a parent, we all know this. That if you have more than one child and you say, hey, would somebody take out the trash? It’s not happening because nobody is somebody.
00:34:46:21 – 00:34:47:07
Christa
No.
00:34:47:10 – 00:34:47:20
Michael
Right?
00:34:47:28 – 00:34:49:16
Christa
Everybody’s like, scatters like real quick.
00:34:49:16 – 00:35:04:12
Michael
Exactly. So you have to be like, you need to do this. You need to do this. You, you know, you know, like, hey, you personally, right? You hear me? You that I’m looking at? We’re locking eyes. You right. You are the one. I’m asking you to do this.
00:35:04:14 – 00:35:06:02
Christa
That’s like mom, when mom would call all of our names …
00:35:06:02 – 00:35:07:07
Michael
All of our names.
00:35:07:07 – 00:35:09:03
Christa
Christa, Candace, Charis, Char— all the way down.
00:35:09:06 – 00:35:10:12
Michael
Yeah. All the way down the stairs.
00:35:10:12 – 00:35:11:07
Christa
Make sure one of us gets the ….
00:35:11:11 – 00:35:13:24
Michael
Yeah. Because she was like, Michael, is that you? But it wasn’t.
00:35:13:24 – 00:35:15:03
Christa
Yeah. Nobody would answer.
00:35:15:03 – 00:35:32:21
Michael
You’re like, not me. Anyway. So. Yeah. So the law is always organized in single-person. And for that reason. It’s like that individually you have the responsibility to make this happen. I think that if you’re looking at the world and you’re like, man, the world is so messed up, I wish somebody would do something about that.
00:35:32:23 – 00:35:33:18
Christa
Go look in the mirror.
00:35:33:18 – 00:35:33:27
Michael
Yeah.
00:35:33:27 – 00:35:34:18
Christa
It’s you.
00:35:34:21 – 00:35:37:14
Michael
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re the person.
00:35:37:19 – 00:37:04:06
Christa
You are the one. All right, moving into episode eight, this is three powers and anthropology. I thought you had some excellent points and illustrations on how God does not have a unique or specific gender. You said we use gender in order to understand qualities about God. The reality is that what it means to be female and what it means to be male, is defined by those qualities proceeding from God. I thought this was a great clarification of the book of Augustine’s book “On the Trinity,” where he speaks about God being called the father automatically assumes that he has a son, and how the co-existence of both of these entities is a reality. And personally, I never thought about the Holy Spirit as the feminine characterization. And, I’m getting to the question, what is the question? It oh, when when you said the feminine characterization of God, which orients itself toward life and toward good, almost always, and I don’t know, I think that my leaning into the affections, what you mentioned earlier and be like, well, we all need to be affections primary or whatever is more about this, because I do feel the absence of Holy Spirit in the church. And so I’m like, okay, well, we need the affections. We need, you know, and we should all be that, not that should be our strongest power. I understand what you mean, that that’s not that.
00:37:04:06 – 00:37:07:11
Michael
That’s not necessarily going to be the primary power, yeah.
00:37:07:14 – 00:37:43:14
Christa
But I do like my hope is that we do lean into people that are affectionally oriented, that we do, but we all we also not only lean into that, but on the other side of things, or maybe hand in hand with it. We need the Holy Spirit like, and I don’t think that we lean into the Holy Spirit as much as we should as a church community, as a body of believers, in general, I’m not going to say in specific.
00:37:43:16 – 00:39:12:12
Michael
No, I agree with you. It is very interesting too, that … Well, I mean, there’s a lot of different things I could say, but one is that the organization of history seems like a movement toward the age of the Spirit. The Scriptures themselves are somewhat organized in this way. I mean, I’ve talked about, three powers in these terms, but, Micah Hood, one of my friends and listeners, sent me this message where he was talking about the way that the Old Testament was organized and how you have Torah, which is the law, and then you have Nevi’im, which is the prophets, and then you have the Ketuvim, which is the writings. So that’s the way the Old Testament was organized in the Hebrew order. We’ve reorganized it for reasons that I think are dumb. But Jesus would have read it in this order, which is why he says things like, every martyr from Abel to Zechariah, that you have persecuted and your fathers have persecuted … The reason why he says Abel to Zechariah is Abel is the first martyr in Genesis. But Zechariah is not the last chronological martyr. He’s the last martyr in the Hebrew ordering of the Old Testament, because that’s in Second Chronicles. And Second Chronicles is the last book of the Hebrew Old Testament, because the chronicles are in the Ketuvim—the writings. Anyway…
00:39:12:13 – 00:39:13:05
Christa
Interesting.
00:39:13:07 – 00:39:55:00
Michael
So that … that’s one way Jesus is showing that he’s organizing his thinking, even in terms of the Old Testament as it was organized in Hebrew. Okay, so the law, the prophets, the writings, the writings are sometimes called the Psalms because they begin with the Psalms, and that’s the largest book that’s in the writings. But you also have the wisdom literature, Job, Proverbs, song of Solomon, even some of the stories and histories and chronicles, like First and Second Chronicles are also in the book of the writings, the Ketuvim, the last book. So it’s like poetry and wisdom literature, and some chronicles.
00:39:55:02 – 00:39:56:10
Christa
Okay.
00:39:56:10 – 00:40:00:01
Michael
But the Torah is obviously the law.
00:40:00:03 – 00:40:00:15
Christa
Right.
00:40:00:15 – 00:40:04:01
Michael
That’s organized to speak to what part of you?
00:40:04:04 – 00:40:04:23
Christa
The will.
00:40:04:24 – 00:40:06:27
Michael
The will. Right. What to do, what is right.
00:40:06:27 – 00:40:07:06
Christa
Right.
00:40:07:10 – 00:40:11:05
Michael
And the Nevi’im, the prophets, are organized according to …
00:40:11:06 – 00:40:11:21
Christa
Intellect.
00:40:11:22 – 00:40:39:20
Michael
The intellect. What is true, what actually is. The writings and the wisdom literature and the Psalms are actually organized towards your life, how to live life and how to live it well and what has happened. And, you know, what that tells you about how you should, in the future, move and operate. So it’s about life. The writings are about your life. And, it’s interesting that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are also organized in those ways.
00:40:39:20 – 00:40:40:19
Christa
That is interesting.
00:40:40:19 – 00:41:42:29
Michael
That you have the Father of the will and the Son of the prophets and, the, you know, the intellect and who is the Word of God. You have the Holy Spirit who is obviously the affectional, you know, kind of force. It’s interesting then, that that’s the way the Scriptures are organized. And I think also the way that ultimately the history itself is organized, that we are coming into the fullness of the age of the Holy Spirit. And that means that in many ways, I’ve talked about, there’s … I think there’s a reformation of the affections that is still to come. That hasn’t happened yet, but it maybe is beginning. It certainly is somewhat, suppressed when people start talking about empathy as a sin, for instance, like, and when you start villainizing, affect- … the affections as being this really dangerous, very unstable thing. But the thing is, I understand why people feel that way. The Holy Spirit is the scariest of all.
00:41:43:01 – 00:41:44:17
Christa
It is. I mean, for sure.
00:41:44:21 – 00:41:51:19
Michael
Not because the Holy Spirit is anything other than gentle and humble and all the rest of that stuff, but it’s so weird. Right?
00:41:51:21 – 00:41:54:27
Christa
Especially growing up in a church that was not really oriented around that.
00:41:54:27 – 00:42:16:24
Michael
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I, I remember in the church that, you know, pushed me out and told me I should take my blog down. They, they told … One of the members there was really upset because they said, you know, I talked about the Word of God personally, like the Word of God was a person. I was like, well, puzzled noises
00:42:16:26 – 00:42:17:15
Christa
Living and breathing …
00:42:17:15 – 00:42:55:01
Michael
The Word of God is a person. Jesus is the Word of God. Jesus is the person. Remember that? And she’s like, no, the Bible is the Word of God. So this is the kind of environment where we grew up. You know? But she also said she had a real problem with my understanding of the Holy Spirit, because she said, if the Word of God is able to be received and not just in the Scriptures, which the Scriptures themselves would confirm this. Right? Because the Word of God is obviously a larger category than the Scriptures. I mean, you have people like Noah who heard the Word of God. There wasn’t any Scriptures.
00:42:55:03 – 00:42:55:13
Christa
Right.
00:42:55:13 – 00:43:03:25
Michael
So he didn’t have the Scriptures, but he heard the Word of God. Right? Okay. That means the Word of God is larger than the Scriptures right then and there, that like necessitates that reality.
00:43:03:26 – 00:43:05:02
Christa
Right.
00:43:05:02 – 00:43:14:08
Michael
It’s also the case that when you hear about Jesus and it says the things he said and he did were so numerous that if you were to try to write them all down, it would fill all the books of the world. Whatever.
00:43:14:11 – 00:43:14:18
Christa
Right.
00:43:14:19 – 00:43:18:18
Michael
Okay. So obviously if Jesus said something, is that the Word of God?
00:43:18:18 – 00:43:18:26
Christa
Yes.
00:43:18:26 – 00:43:25:06
Michael
He’s God. So he’s spoken. Is that the Word of God? Yeah. So that means that there are lots of things he said that are the Word of God that are not in the Scriptures.
00:43:25:08 – 00:43:25:16
Christa
Right.
00:43:25:16 – 00:43:26:22
Michael
It says that explicitly.
00:43:26:24 – 00:43:27:11
Christa
Right.
00:43:27:13 – 00:44:38:19
Michael
So even if you’re saying the Bible is the Word of God, well, just trust your Bible then, because it actually says the Word of God is bigger than the Bible. And so that’s why I believe that. Right? And so she’s like, well, yeah, but that means how do you know whether you’re hearing from God or whether you’re hearing from some other or some other interpretation or some other thing? I’m like, that’s great to ask that. Because you should be reading the Bible this way too. Am I actually hearing my own thoughts when I’m reading the Bible or am I hearing from God? You should be discerning like the Bible tells you to when it says test the spirits to see whether or not they are from God, because not every spirit is from God. Meaning there are spirits within you that are speaking, that are interpreting this text, and some of them are not telling you the truth. Some of them are actually pretty dedicated to deceiving you and to keeping you in a state of deception, including your own flesh, including your own fallen sinful spirit. And so, you know, it’s very important in that context to actually learn how to hear the Holy Spirit. But that’s scary.
00:44:38:20 – 00:44:39:09
Christa
It is.
00:44:39:09 – 00:45:08:03
Michael
Because it’s so much more … it seems so much more stable and so much more secure to just be like this book here. This is the Word of God. You know, it’s like well yeah. But even then you know you’re up there in the pulpit saying stuff that’s just like your opinion, man. You know what I mean? Like it’s not … You’re not necessarily speaking the Word of God. You’re not even necessarily speaking the Word of God when you’re quoting Scripture. That is a really hard thing for people to get their heads around.
00:45:08:03 – 00:45:09:07
Christa
You just got exed right there.
00:45:09:09 – 00:45:09:18
Michael
I know.
00:45:09:18 – 00:45:10:06
Christa
That was it.
00:45:10:08 – 00:45:11:24
Michael
But Satan quoted Scripture.
00:45:12:01 – 00:45:17:09
Christa
I’m just kidding. You know, I’m kidding about that. And you’re like.
00:45:17:13 – 00:45:27:04
Michael
We’re not brother and sister anymore. You’re an outcast. No, it doesn’t matter. I’ll still speak the truth. Satan quoted the Scriptures
00:45:27:07 – 00:45:27:18
Christa
He did.
00:45:27:24 – 00:45:50:05
Michael
and Sa- … and Jesus said that everything Satan says is a lie, because the truth isn’t in him. And so whatever comes out of him is a lie. It’s just from his nature, because the truth is not in him. So if if he’s quoted Scripture and Satan’s like … and Jesus is like, that’s a lie. What you just said is a lie.
00:45:50:07 – 00:45:53:18
Christa
That kind of goes back to there are facts and there is what’s true.
00:45:53:24 – 00:46:53:07
Michael
Exactly. That’s exactly what I’m saying. So that means that the Holy Spirit who it says is … leads you to all the truth. There has to be a personal relationship. You can’t just have a dead faith in some words on a page as if, if I profess this and I try to check all these boxes, then I’ve achieved righteousness or I’ve achieved, you know, salvation or whatever. The problem with people is they’re like, oh, it’d be really scary to do that. Yeah, it is scary. You can’t escape the scariness of it because you can resist the Holy Spirit. You think that’s less scary? You think that’s a less scary situation to be in? Like you’re in a scary situation. That’s the truth. The truth is you are in a scary situation. You know, I’ll have people come up to me. I love saying things like this because it’s just the truth, right? They’ll come to me and be like, I’m afraid to have kids because I’m afraid that I’ll mess them up. And I’m like, oh, don’t be afraid of that.
00:46:53:12 – 00:46:55:07
Christa
You will.
00:46:55:09 – 00:47:03:25
Michael
You will. Don’t … Have no fear, okay? Like, let your fears go because you will definitely mess your kids up.
00:47:03:25 – 00:47:04:03
Christa
Yes.
00:47:04:06 – 00:47:10:00
Michael
No no no no question. Right? I’m afraid of dying, you know. Don’t be afraid of dying.
00:47:10:03 – 00:47:10:13
Christa
You will.
00:47:10:15 – 00:47:53:16
Michael
You will. You’ll die. It’s fine. You’re going to do it. You don’t have to be afraid of it. Don’t fear it. You know, don’t worry about it. You’re going to, you know? And it’s the same with this. It’s like, well, I’m afraid of having to trust in the Holy Spirit. It’s kind of like, well, well, don’t be because you are trusting in the Holy Spirit one way or the other. You’re relying on it one way or the other. You’re either … you are either in the danger of not having dealings with the Holy Spirit, or you’re in the danger of dealing with the Holy Spirit. But one way or the other, you have to deal with the Holy Spirit, right? You’re … you have to deal with the fact that, it is not … you don’t have any kind of stable, secure, in-yourself, anchor, for reality or for truth or for your own being.
00:47:53:19 – 00:47:58:01
Christa
I’m thinking of that verse in whom we live and move and have our being
00:47:58:01 – 00:47:59:21
Michael
Exactly. Yeah.
00:47:59:21 – 00:48:06:16
Christa
There’s fluidity. There’s movement. There’s it’s not a eee You’re not stuck.
00:48:06:18 – 00:48:12:10
Michael
Right. And I think people are they want … they want things to be fixed.
00:48:12:12 – 00:48:14:06
Christa
Oh, sure. I want things to be fixed.
00:48:14:06 – 00:48:14:21
Michael
I know.
00:48:14:27 – 00:48:29:16
Christa
I’m saying that that’s an idol for me. Like, I want to be the fixer. I want to fix it. I want to control it so that I can have it all in my little … you know, the … my ducks are in a row. Like, I don’t want my ducks to be scattered, like …
00:48:29:19 – 00:48:31:20
Michael
Well, what is fixed though?
00:48:31:23 – 00:48:32:09
Christa
Nothing.
00:48:32:16 – 00:48:33:12
Michael
That’s not true.
00:48:33:15 – 00:48:37:00
Christa
Well, I mean, things are … Well, God is fixed, but … Well, maybe He’s not …
00:48:37:03 – 00:48:54:22
Michael
I wouldn’t say God’s fixed. Not in that sense. Well, I mean, is there anything that’s fixed? That doesn’t … that truly doesn’t change in a … or experience or do with anything. That’s like … I’m talking inert.
00:48:54:25 – 00:49:03:19
Christa
I’m sure there is, but I’m … You’re looking at me. Just go ahead and tell me, brother. Oftentimes your questions, I’m just like, well, let me see.
00:49:03:24 – 00:49:07:09
Michael
Like, if you want to fix something, just kill it.
00:49:07:11 – 00:49:10:22
Christa
Oh, but why would I do that? Oh, kill the idol.
00:49:10:24 – 00:49:23:15
Michael
Just … No, just kill it. I mean, if you want something fixed, you just kill it. Then it’ll be dead. And then it won’t move anymore. And you can actually reshape it in whatever shape you want to. It won’t resist you.
00:49:23:17 – 00:49:25:03
Christa
But I don’t want to do that.
00:49:25:03 – 00:49:31:26
Michael
I know, but that is an idol. Do you understand? That’s the nature of an idol. That’s why we have idols. Because they’re dead.
00:49:31:28 – 00:49:32:01
Christa
Yeah.
00:49:32:03 – 00:49:37:27
Michael
We don’t want a living God. Because living God … Living God doesn’t do what we want.
00:49:37:29 – 00:49:38:20
Christa
No, he doesn’t.
00:49:38:25 – 00:49:43:00
Michael
Living God. When I move his arm this way, he resists.
00:49:43:03 – 00:49:43:09
Christa
Yes.
00:49:43:10 – 00:50:06:02
Michael
When I ask him questions about stuff, he gives me answers I don’t like. You know? He sees things I’d rather he not see. Says things I’d rather him not say. You know what I’m saying? Like a living God is a God that has to be reckoned with. But if you want something fixed, then you’re going to worship an idol because idols are dead. Like, the only fixed thing there is is death. Life is moving.
00:50:06:04 – 00:50:06:20
Christa
It is.
00:50:06:20 – 00:50:36:09
Michael
So the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life—not predictable. Not under your control. And that’s really scary. But, that’s … that is why I love the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is alive, and the Holy Spirit grants life, and the Holy Spirit is wonderful. I mean, He’s good. God is good, right? God is good all the time.
00:50:36:11 – 00:50:36:28
Christa
All the time.
00:50:37:01 – 00:50:39:01
Michael
Right. And so.
00:50:39:03 – 00:50:40:02
Christa
That is his nature.
00:50:40:06 – 00:50:51:08
Michael
It is his nature. So it shouldn’t be … We shouldn’t be afraid. And maybe the fear is I might make a mistake. And again, it’s like, don’t be afraid of that. You will.
00:50:51:10 – 00:50:51:20
Christa
Yeah.
00:50:51:26 – 00:50:54:27
Michael
You will make mistakes. You’re going to make so many mistakes.
00:50:54:29 – 00:51:17:23
Christa
I think there’s also the fear of suffering because no one really wants to suffer. But I’m wondering if we’re coming into the age of Holy Spirit. I think that suffering is going to be a very prominent thing that is going to be necessary in order to bring us back to where we need to be.
00:51:17:25 – 00:51:31:09
Michael
Possibly. Yeah, it’ll be interesting to see. There’s a quotation from, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn or whatever his name is.
00:51:31:12 – 00:51:34:12
Christa
Sol-zi-neesh-kin or something like that. I don’t know.
00:51:34:15 – 00:53:21:20
Michael
But from his Nobel speech that he gave in 1970 and he said he has an issue with Dostoevsky’s quote, Beauty will save the world. Are you familiar with Dostoevsky? Yeah. So I think it’s in Brothers Karamazov that he says beauty will save the world. And Solzhenitsyn’s like, beauty will save the world like, that … when I was younger especially, I thought that was such a stupid thing to say. Like, how could beauty save the world? Beauty is weak. Beauty is not capable of doing anything, right? And he says, you know, the ancients had this thing of the true, the good, and the beautiful. You know, and he’s like, and truth and right seems to be what makes things happen in the world. He’s like, but what’s interesting is that truth and right is able to be crushed and cut off and forced not to exist. And he’s like, and perhaps, you know, in the end, that beauty, unexpected beauty—which beauty is always unexpected; beauty is always surprising. And it’s always so unassuming. And he’s like, but it’s so convincing. When you see something that’s beautiful, you cannot deny it. But and it can’t be, it can’t actually be falsified. Like you can tell me something that seems true but isn’t. You can tell me something that seems right, but isn’t. But can you tell me something that seems beautiful, but isn’t? No. Beauty in itself is like its own verification. And so he’s like, well, maybe in the end beauty … when beauty will save the world, it’s because in a time when all the others are destroyed, beauty is the only thing that’s going to be able to rise above.
00:53:21:22 – 00:54:43:26
Christa
So the first thing that comes to mind when you say the word beauty, I think of like, a person that’s beautiful, or a sunset or a landscape that’s beautiful. But I was reflecting on some discussions that I’ve had recently and just the word delight. And, when I went to speak to the school this past week, I asked them to close their eyes and to imagine something that brings a smile to their face that they, like, delighted in. And because if you think about things that you delight in, that to me is beauty. That. So I’m not sure if I’m not connecting those appropriately. But when you say beauty, I feel that sense of delight. What do you delight in? And that can’t be crushed or I what it could be, I guess. But in my imagination, what I delight in, what brings me joy, what brings God joy. But in that reverse—and I spoke to the kids about this, too—God, in the same way that you delight in those things, that those bring a smile to your face, that they light up your face or whatever, God delights in you. And I, I love to have that picture that to me. When you say beauty is what I feel is delight. I don’t know if that’s correct.
00:54:44:00 – 00:55:11:26
Michael
No, I think it’s true. I mean, I think it’s a little bigger than that, but it at least includes that. Because I think the idea of beauty is an exploration of good and evil, then that … that is … It’s weird. But in order to understand what is good, you do have to have an understanding of what is evil. So beauty is just an intentional exploration of what is good and evil.
00:55:11:29 – 00:55:15:25
Christa
And so like, it’s the rainy days that give us love for the sun.
00:55:15:25 – 00:55:39:03
Michael
Sure. Yeah. Well, at least at the very least, knowing that there are rainy days and having experienced rainy days, it helps you to understand the spectrum of what sunlight and sunny days mean. Righ?. And I don’t think ultimately God would have allowed Adam and Eve, for instance, to have existed in an only … with only the experience of good.
00:55:39:05 – 00:55:47:20
Christa
Well, he didn’t I mean, well, when they didn’t experience evil, they knew. I mean, they had the tree. I don’t know, I’m just thinking off …
00:55:47:22 – 00:55:55:14
Michael
Well, I’m saying, is it possible to experience evil in a state of righteousness?
00:55:55:16 – 00:55:57:18
Christa
I think so, I don’t know. I don’t think so..
00:55:57:18 – 00:56:01:00
Michael
But of course there is. What are you talking about? Like Jesus did.
00:56:01:03 – 00:56:07:00
Christa
What? Oh, oh I’m talking, I’m thinking like in human terms or not in a …
00:56:07:03 – 00:56:08:03
Michael
Well, those are human terms.
00:56:08:03 – 00:56:09:12
Christa
Yep. Okay.
00:56:09:14 – 00:56:11:26
Michael
Jesus as a human being …
00:56:11:29 – 00:56:15:02
Christa
You will … you’re seeing me take a nosedive, crashing noise
00:56:15:05 – 00:56:45:07
Michael
It’s all right. That’s all right. All right. Yeah. So what I mean is that I believe Adam and Eve were being invited into an experience of righteous suffering. That’s how they would have learned evil. I don’t think God would have. … I think God wanted them to have a knowledge of good and evil. So, like the tree, the tree that is the knowledge of good and evil.
00:56:45:09 – 00:56:46:04
Christa
Right.
00:56:46:06 – 00:56:58:09
Michael
There’s two reasons why it becomes the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It actually is a tree of the knowledge of good and evil even if they never eat from it.
00:56:58:11 – 00:56:58:28
Christa
True.
00:56:59:01 – 00:57:11:19
Michael
Because that one fruit withheld from them is the first evil they ever experienced.
00:57:11:22 – 00:57:16:26
Christa
But so what you’re saying is they experienced evil without participating in it.
00:57:16:27 – 00:57:22:00
Michael
Exactly. They experienced evil without sinning because evil is a …
00:57:22:02 – 00:57:23:21
Christa
And Jesus would have done that too. He would’ve …
00:57:23:21 – 00:57:24:08
Michael
Exactly.
00:57:24:08 – 00:57:26:02
Christa
Okay, I get it. I get your line of thinking.
00:57:26:11 – 00:57:26:17
Michael
So …
00:57:26:17 – 00:57:27:11
Christa
It takes me a while sometimes, you know?
00:57:27:14 – 00:59:49:01
Michael
It’s okay. It’s all right. So. Because if God hadn’t put the tree in the middle of the garden and said, don’t eat this, then Adam and Eve, their entire existence would have been nothing but good. Meaning it would have just been happy, pleasing, life giving good. But as soon as God said all of these other trees you can eat. But this one tree right here you may not eat, that was the first evil they ever experienced. Meaning that in that moment they experienced the withholding of a good, the deprivation of a good, the deprivation of that one single tree’s fruit. And so that is how that knowledge, in a sense, is provided to them. So that tree, even if they had never eaten of it, would have been the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, in the sense that they would have understood for the first time something a little bit about evil without participating in sin. But when they ate of the tree, it also becomes the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in a totally different sense. And that because of the fact that they have sinned, they have disconnected themselves from the life of God and now are experiencing evil more deeply all the way to 11. Do you understand? So like if you’re talking about a spectrum of good and evil, like good on one side, right, is life. Eternal life. Okay. And like, you know, you can you can just like with light and darkness, you know, there’s a gradient, you know, and so all the way on this side, eternal death. Okay. So eternal death all the way dark all the way black, you know, not even just like perma-black. Okay. And then over here like infinite light, is the eternal life. And the light was the life of men. I mean, God talks about it in those same terms as well. Okay. So you know what’s like just a little tiny bit of evil. Not a lot, but just a little bit. Just the deprivation of a single good. The deprivation of a single good is like the smallest evil you could experience. So it seems to me that God has Adam and Eve on a on like a training wheel plan, like he wants them to eventually be able to suffer as he suffers. As he has always suffered.
00:59:49:04 – 00:59:53:22
Christa
That statement makes so much application to us.
00:59:53:26 – 00:59:58:18
Michael
Exactly. Right. So he wants us to be like him fully.
00:59:58:20 – 01:00:00:14
Christa
And so that includes suffering.
01:00:00:17 – 01:00:02:19
Michael
It includes … because he suffers.
01:00:02:19 – 01:00:03:00
Christa
Right.
01:00:03:00 – 01:00:06:22
Michael
Because he restrains himself. Because he withholds good from himself.
01:00:06:23 – 01:00:07:12
Christa
Right.
01:00:07:15 – 01:00:09:28
Michael
Before we even existed, he was doing that.
01:00:10:00 – 01:00:10:11
Christa
Right.
01:00:10:13 – 01:00:33:04
Michael
The fact that he made Earth in six days and rested the seventh, none of which things he needed for himself are all suffering. He’s withholding things from himself constantly. Like that is what it means to have self-control, which is a fruit of the spirit, which means God has that, which means it’s part of his nature to control, meaning, to withhold things, from himself.
01:00:33:06 – 01:00:33:29
Christa
Right.
01:00:34:01 – 01:01:17:17
Michael
He doesn’t have to. He doesn’t have to withhold anything from himself. He does, and he always did. And so, like, he does suffer. He understands suffering. He wanted Adam and Eve to also understand suffering without sin. And instead they took, like, the fast track to all the way to 11. To eat the fruit was to bring death. So he’s like, oh man, I was starting you on the single deprivation of good. And, you know, eventually maybe we would have worked our way up to death. But, that would have been a long time in the future, but okay, you know, you guys drank the bleach, so it looks like we’re on the death track now.
01:01:17:20 – 01:01:20:01
Christa
But how often do we do that, too?
01:01:20:03 – 01:01:26:13
Michael
I’m sure we do all the time. Well, I mean, anytime you do sin, that’s pretty much what’s occurring?
01:01:26:13 – 01:01:26:21
Christa
It’s such a death track. Yes.
01:01:26:22 – 01:02:35:12
Michael
You’re on the death track. But, yeah. So I think that that makes sense to me. I think eventually, like, if Adam and Eve hadn’t sinned when it came to the fruit, I think eventually they would have had opportunities to suffer more. I think there would have been more and more and more and more and more and more testing, more and more and more and more suffering. And you go like, well, that sounds awful. And I think a lot of people don’t see it. You know, they look at God like that. And there’s just like, what a monstrous person to put these people through tests and loyalty tests, you know, and trials and suffering and all this other kind of stuff. But you’re like, well, what he’s attempting to do is to grow you to the point where you are more like him. And he proves this when he takes on flesh, lives a life of total rejection and humiliation, and then dies, you know, as God, as the God-Man on the cross. That’s him …That’s not him … That’s not a new reality for him. Do you see what I’m saying?
01:02:35:12 – 01:02:36:01
Christa
No. Yeah.
01:02:36:04 – 01:02:42:18
Michael
Like, that is an … That is an eternal reality for him. He is always dying to himself.
01:02:42:20 – 01:02:43:15
Christa
Right.
01:02:43:17 – 01:03:53:12
Michael
And so that was just him displaying that in ways that we could fully understand. Because that is the nature of God in his humility, in his self-control to suffer in that way. And that couldn’t be just a one-time thing. That’s why the Lamb of God, who comes before God even now, looks as if slain. Why the scars are still in his hands, right? And in his feet and in his side, even in his resurrected body. Because the sign of his suffering was part of his representation of God, his manifesting witness of God’s reality. Because God is a suffering God. God knows how to suffer. And so when God is coming to us and saying, hey, I’ve made you in my image and I’m good, but I suffer because good always suffers. Do you understand? Good always suffers. It’s what we’re afraid of, right?
01:03:53:20 – 01:04:06:26
Christa
We don’t like … And I don’t like it. I don’t like that you’re saying this. I don’t like it. But that’s the nature of the flesh. Not wanting to be … not wanting to go through the suffering. I understand the necessity of it.
01:04:06:26 – 01:04:07:07
Michael
Yeah.
01:04:07:08 – 01:04:08:26
Christa
It’s just I don’t like it.
01:04:08:29 – 01:04:13:03
Michael
Yeah. I mean, it wouldn’t be suffering if you did.
01:04:13:06 – 01:04:16:06
Christa
It’s true. It’s very true.
01:04:16:06 – 01:04:17:27
Michael
And I don’t think we’re ever supposed to like it.
01:04:17:29 – 01:04:19:08
Christa
I know. I know.
01:04:19:08 – 01:04:19:27
Michael
Yeah. So …
01:04:19:27 – 01:04:33:15
Christa
But you’re saying all of this, and I’m taking it all in, and I’m like, man, like, can we just not? Like, but I understand the necessity of it too. Like, it’s just a both/and type of thing.
01:04:33:15 – 01:05:01:00
Michael
We could have just not if we were willing to function basically as just higher-order animals. You know what I mean? Like if God had just been like, I just … you’re just going to function as like higher-order animals. But we weren’t designed to do that. We were designed to rule the cosmos.
01:05:01:03 – 01:05:01:23
Christa
Right.
01:05:01:25 – 01:05:27:00
Michael
And again, a person who is not fully experienced and free to suffer can’t rule the cosmos. Because part of it is, do you know, like, on one side, you’re like, I don’t want to suffer. I don’t want to suffer. I don’t want to suffer. But … that means you’re making choices about suffering that cause other people to suffer.
01:05:27:02 – 01:05:28:13
Christa
That’s interesting.
01:05:28:29 – 01:05:40:25
Michael
So like, for instance, you know, you’re waiting in line. I don’t want to suffer. I don’t want to suffer. I don’t want to suffer. What do you do? Well, just cut in line. Well, yeah, but then other people would suffer. I don’t care. I don’t want to suffer.
01:05:40:26 – 01:05:41:26
Christa
Right.
01:05:41:29 – 01:05:57:27
Michael
But if instead you’re like no I’m willingly suffering, I’m willing to suffer and wait in line. By doing that, you are freeing other people from suffering. So do you understand? Like, …
01:05:58:00 – 01:06:13:15
Christa
I get what you’re saying. I think that there’s kind of like a distinction for me in my mind about sacrifice and suffering. Like, I don’t know, sacrifice. That seems like a sacrifice to me is to wait in line and, you know, and not to …
01:06:13:17 – 01:06:18:05
Michael
Yeah. Sure, that it is a sacrifice, but sacrifice is a willing suffering.
01:06:18:08 – 01:06:49:14
Christa
But like, suffering … I guess it’s also a sacrifice of my own idolatry, too. But I’m just … I’m trying to bring this into, like, a perspective, a lens of my … what goes on in life, you know, and on what we … what happens. Because we can talk in all these platitudes. But when you bring it down to reality, like suffering is something that, that I’ve tried to avoid, but I can’t avoid it.
01:06:49:14 – 01:06:50:04
Michael
You can’t. Yeah.
01:06:50:04 – 01:07:14:09
Christa
I it’s come to me regardless, and a lot of it has to do with—and you and I have talked about this before—but just my desire to control, let’s say, in a parenting situation, trying to control my kids and, and trying to create the best environment for them to become the people that I want them to be. I realize that the words “I” in all of this, instead of thinking about God and everything like that.
01:07:14:09 – 01:07:14:17
Michael
That’s okay.
01:07:14:21 – 01:07:52:28
Christa
I want. I want that. And now that that’s different than what my expectations are, and it’s outside of my control, and there is a certain level of suffering. It no longer … I mean it is a portion of sacrifice because I’m sacrificing my idolatry, I suppose, but suffering to me is, like, is a felt thing, like, I can’t explain it, like, I, I when you feel suffering, there’s a loss. It’s a loss of good.
01:07:53:01 – 01:07:53:18
Michael
Yeah for sure.
01:07:53:27 – 01:07:56:27
Christa
And so anyway, I don’t know. It’s probably semantics.
01:07:57:03 – 01:08:09:28
Michael
No, for sure. You’re right. No, no, no you’re right. That is. It is a loss. I mean it is a loss. What I’m saying is that God is willing to lose for the sake of another.
01:08:10:00 – 01:08:10:26
Christa
Yes.
01:08:10:28 – 01:08:21:12
Michael
Now, so what I’m saying then is that in order to love, you have to have the capacity to suffer.
01:08:21:15 – 01:08:22:01
Christa
Yes.
01:08:22:01 – 01:08:43:09
Michael
Because what you’re saying is, I love you. I’m willing to … I’m willing to pursue your good even at my own expense. But the thing is, if like … if the only thing you’re sitting here going is like, well, I just don’t want to suffer. That’s, that’s it. That’s the whole thing. I just don’t want to suffer. Well then you can’t love. You can’t.
01:08:43:12 – 01:08:43:21
Christa
It’s true.
01:08:43:23 – 01:08:53:03
Michael
It’s like not possible to love in those circumstances. And that’s why, you know, but a lot of people … a lot of people don’t love in that way ever.
01:08:53:05 – 01:09:04:25
Christa
No. And there’s a big wave of people that are trying to avoid suffering at all costs. They don’t want to talk about anything that includes suffering. They don’t want to. If their marriage doesn’t make them happy, they’re out.
01:09:04:25 – 01:09:12:09
Michael
And by happy, what they really mean is when the husband or the wife cease to be good for them.
01:09:12:16 – 01:09:13:17
Christa
Yes.
01:09:13:19 – 01:09:25:26
Michael
Meaning when, in other words, like not only, not only are you not willing to suffer, you’re willing to make other people suffer as long as it is pleasing to you.
01:09:25:29 – 01:09:27:16
Christa
Yeah. Which is so arrogant! I’m sorry. I shouldn’t …
01:09:27:17 – 01:09:30:24
Michael
01:09:30:27 – 01:09:31:21
Michael
That’s okay.
01:09:31:24 – 01:09:38:26
Christa
No. I’m saying I need to be careful about saying … point … being judgmental about people and things like that, because you know …
01:09:38:29 – 01:09:45:29
Michael
Yeah, but I mean, it is there is a selfishness to it and there is a certain kind of arrogance to it. We all do it to one extent or another.
01:09:45:29 – 01:09:46:20
Christa
Oh for sure.
01:09:46:20 – 01:10:30:03
Michael
But part of the reason we do it, and part of the reason we do it without even thinking about it, is because we’re trying to avoid pain. And that is why I’m saying that what God is inviting us into, like think about, when Jesus says the way is narrow and strait, that leads to life. The way is broad, easy, that leads to death. And he says, and there are few who find the way to life. Now he just said, you know, seek me and you will find me. So he says that there are few who find it mean that probably what he means by that is there are few who
01:10:30:05 – 01:10:30:11
Christa
Seek him.
01:10:30:11 – 01:10:31:16
Michael
Seek it.
01:10:31:20 – 01:10:32:11
Christa
Yeah.
01:10:32:13 – 01:11:46:06
Michael
And of course there are few that seek it. I mean, think about what he just said. He said the way is narrow. Right? Like tight. And strait as in painful actually. The Greek there is very clearly talking about something that is constrictive and painful, as opposed to free and easy, pleasant. Right? Well, that way is very easy. Everybody’s walking it, but it leads to death is the only problem is it leads to death, I mean, that’s unfortunate. The way that leads to life is constrictive and painful. And so there are few who seek that way. That doesn’t mean that there are few, ultimately, who are alive, ultimately who are living. It’s just that if they’re going to be alive, God’s going to be seeking them. God’s going to have to seek them out because they’re going to be on the broad way with everybody else, and he’s going to have to go into the highways and hedges and find those people and be like, hey, come on to my feast. And that’s usually how it works, right? There are very few people who seek that out. Why? Why would you seek a way that you know is going to bring you into suffering?
01:11:46:06 – 01:11:47:04
Christa
Are you crazy? I mean, come on.
01:11:47:05 – 01:12:54:24
Michael
Yeah. You’re out of your mind. That’s what I’m saying. But we have stories of those few. We have stories of those few who—looking, knowing this is what this is going to cost. And they said, and I’m going to do that because it’s the right thing to do, because it is the good thing to do, because it’s the true thing to do. Whatever it may be. They said, knowing what it’s going to cost. I’m not just naively going into this suffering. I know that I will suffer if I make this choice, and I’m going to make the choice. That is the few who seek the strait and narrow. They seek it. They have actually sought out a way they know to be difficult. And, I think that’s what God was inviting Adam to. You understand? Like, come with me on the strait and narrow. It’s difficult. It’s painful, requires discipline. But disciplines for reproof are the way of life. So you’re, you’re going to find life in this in the end if you’re willing to give it up.
01:12:54:26 – 01:13:01:25
Christa
So it’s interesting that you say if it’s the right thing to do, if it’s the good thing to do, if it’s the true thing to do. You did that purposefully, did you?
01:13:01:29 – 01:13:02:16
Michael
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
01:13:02:17 – 01:13:03:20
Christa
For the three …
01:13:03:21 – 01:13:04:18
Michael
For the three powers.
01:13:04:22 – 01:13:05:17
Christa
For the three powers.
01:13:05:17 – 01:13:06:22
Michael
Yeah.
01:13:06:22 – 01:13:26:11
Christa
So in relationship to suffering, just thinking out loud. Are we called to suffer in our area of strength or in our weak … our strong power or our weak power or all three of them?
01:13:26:11 – 01:15:07:17
Michael
Sure. I mean, you’re called to lay yourself down, to deny yourself. So whatever that means. It could be that that means investing in your subject power is laying down, you know. Or it could be sometimes it’s, you know, God is calling you to use your great strength for the sake of another person. And you might even get credit. You might … They might even say, hey, wow, you’re so good at that. Like, thank you so much for coming and helping me out. Or it may be, you know, I remember hearing … I’ve heard a lot of stories like this, but there was one guy who was talking about how he was an expert, in some particular topic, and he met somebody at a bar or something like that. The other person was talking really enthusiastically about, how they had learned, and they were like in college or something. And so they’re like learning. And he was like a nuclear physicist. And so this person is, talking about like, some of the rudiments of nuclear physics and really enthusiastic about it. And so the guy was like, he was so enthusiastic and he enjoyed talking about it so much that I just let him talk. And even though he could have said things, you know what I mean? He was the expert. But in that moment, for the sake of this other guy, he laid that down. And so sometimes that’s what’s called for, like, your great strength. Sometimes you’re called to deny it for the sake of another person. And sometimes you’re called to use it for the sake of another person or whatever. But one way or the other, you know, like God, the Holy Spirit can direct you to the right choice. And I don’t think … I think oftentimes we’re just not really thinking about it. We’re not looking for it. Yeah.
01:15:07:19 – 01:15:11:19
Christa
Well, I’m laying down my my strength of intellect now to let you talk.
01:15:11:21 – 01:16:01:15
Michael
Yeah, I know. I noticed. I noticed that. Yeah. And, well, it is interesting you say that, though, because I … one of my weaknesses is that I like to talk, and I usually have things that I think would be appropriate or fitting or, you know, interesting to talk about. But a lot of people I feel like, probably need more space to talk. I know my wife does. I know Vanessa does. There. And I make her feel like I don’t care what she has to say sometimes. You see what I’m saying? And so even if I did have really great things to say and really true things to say, there’s tons and tons of times where I really do need to be quiet. And I struggle with that.
01:16:01:17 – 01:16:18:26
Christa
Yeah. And I mean, I can understand that. And it is a struggle sometimes. I like to talk too a lot of times. But when I’m sitting next to somebody that is largely intellectual and has a lot … and you’re actually, I think. Oh, don’t mean to hit that thing again.
01:16:19:00 – 01:16:20:06
Michael
How dare you …
01:16:20:08 – 01:16:40:07
Christa
You are really good at being able to discern and pick out what I’m trying to say, even though sometimes it’s very muddled. And I appreciate that you’re able to do that, and kind of streamline whatever it is I’m trying to say, because I’m really all over the place a lot of times.
01:16:40:12 – 01:16:40:22
Michael
Yeah.
01:16:40:22 – 01:17:30:03
Christa
So, it’s hard to … it’s hard to kind of bring me down into, you know, an understanding of what I’m really trying to say. But I think you’re really good at that. Even though I do know you like to talk, and I like to hear what you have to say. Sometimes I think, like, there’s so much, like, even what we’ve talked about so far. There’s so much to pack in … that’s packed into this that I need to, like, selah, pause and reflect, you know, because I’m like, I want to see how this applies, like based on my experience and kind of using the same data points, you know, that you’ve talked about. But I also want to expand my experience and expand my data points, my understanding. And so that’s why it’s helpful to me to have a lot of examples, to take it into a personal connection with my life.
01:17:30:06 – 01:17:30:28
Michael
Yeah.
01:17:30:28 – 01:17:34:00
Christa
So that I can utilize it, and not …
01:17:34:00 – 01:17:34:29
Michael
Well, yeah.
01:17:35:02 – 01:17:42:13
Christa
And not just lay it there and, you know, the intellectual side of things or whatever, but, Anyway,
01:17:42:15 – 01:18:01:00
Michael
That’s when it becomes … Well, I think … I talk to my kids about prophecy. Usually when you think about prophecy, you’re thinking about, you know, predictions that come true, but all truth is prophetic in that way. That, you know, I say something maybe and it it will prove true more and more.
01:18:01:02 – 01:18:01:15
Christa
Right.
01:18:01:15 – 01:18:42:04
Michael
Where you … You know, if I say something about the Scriptures and I say, here’s a distinction in the Scriptures and, you know, and I give you a few proof texts, but then you go to the Scriptures and you find a bunch of texts that were like that, shh. This does not work. Right? Well then what the prophet said did not come to pass. You see what I’m saying? Like that’s the … but if you … if there are things that I wasn’t even having in mind—and this happens to me all the time—where I’ll be trying to think through a problem or whatever, and then I’ll go to the Scriptures, and I’ll find verses that just happen to support what I’m saying. Way better than I could have even imagined. I’m like, oh, well, maybe there’s something to this, you know what I mean? When it starts to become predictive.
01:18:42:07 – 01:18:43:14
Christa
Like confirmation.
01:18:43:14 – 01:18:43:23
Michael
Yeah.
01:18:43:24 – 01:18:44:23
Christa
You’re getting confirmation.
01:18:44:26 – 01:19:10:06
Michael
And you got to be careful. You know, a lot of people … you’ve got like confirmation bias. So of course I, you know, having the idea I would want to find it wherever I’m looking. But that’s not exactly what I’m talking about. It’s something else than that. It’s like this shock of surprise and discovery that occurs in those things where it’s not something you’re searching for, and it’s something that God is granting to say, like here, that it’s even more so than you thought.
01:19:10:07 – 01:19:10:16
Christa
Yeah.
01:19:10:17 – 01:19:13:04
Michael
Because usually in that there’s also a correction.
01:19:13:06 – 01:19:13:20
Christa
Right.
01:19:13:21 – 01:19:22:07
Michael
Right? Where it’s like, oh, you thought that, oh, well, this is way deeper. It’s way deeper than you thought. It goes way further than you thought. And so …
01:19:22:07 – 01:19:23:19
Christa
And that’s his gentle mercy.
01:19:23:19 – 01:19:25:16
Michael
He is. He’s very merciful. Yeah.
01:19:25:20 – 01:19:30:07
Christa
To get, bring, bring us along, you know, a little bit along the way and then be like, explode, like.
01:19:30:08 – 01:19:30:15
Michael
Yeah.
01:19:30:21 – 01:19:31:05
Christa
See?
01:19:31:12 – 01:19:52:25
Michael
Right. Exactly. He’s not going to start us with death. He’s going to start us with you know, how about don’t eat that fruit. That’s your first lesson, you know. And but … and again I think it’s good that he’s like that with us. We get really frustrated with him for being like that with us. We’re like I can handle it.
01:19:52:27 – 01:19:54:00
Christa
Yeah. No, you can’t.
01:19:54:00 – 01:19:56:08
Michael
No, you can’t. Can you just trust me, you can’t.
01:19:56:12 – 01:19:58:10
Christa
You cannot carry this suitcase. It’s too heavy.
01:19:58:10 – 01:20:02:07
Michael
Just leave your training wheels on for a second. You know what I mean? Come on.
01:20:02:10 – 01:20:02:17
Christa
Yes.
01:20:02:18 – 01:20:14:26
Michael
You haven’t even ridden your bike yet. With the training wheels on. You’ve just looked at it. Like, I can do it. Anyway, so, yeah, we can take a little break, too. A little selah.
01:20:15:02 – 01:20:16:28
Christa
Yeah.
01:20:17:01 – 01:21:19:29
Michael
Thank you for listening and or watching today. I hope that you enjoyed that yet again. A lot of people have already mentioned that the first conversation part that I released, a couple of weeks ago has been really helpful for them for clarifying some of the things, and they like the conversational style and the conversational approach. So if you’re enjoying that, just let me know. That always helps to direct the future podcast episodes. If you’re liking it or not liking it, just let me know. I’d like to know either way, and you can find all these episodes on NothingHumanPodcast.com, and please leave a comment or a question or whatever else you want to say. I don’t know what would fall under another category, but if there’s another category there and you find it, go ahead and leave whatever that is on my website, On NothingHumanPodcast.com on the relevant episode. I really appreciate you all listening and watching today. And I hope that you have a great day and a great rest of your week. All right. See you later.