Same-Sex Marriage: A More Perfect Union?

On Tuesday, Illinois voted to become the 15th state to legalize homosexual marriage. Michelle and Barack Obama were overjoyed. In a speech, Obama congratulated his home state with some glowing words of praise:

Tonight, I applaud the men and women of the Illinois General Assembly, a body in which I was proud to serve, for voting to legalize marriage equality in my home state.

. . . Throughout this debate, they’ve made it clear that this is about civil marriages and civil laws, and made sure that churches and other institutions of faith are still free to make their own decisions that conform to their own teachings.

. . . Our journey as a nation is not complete until our gay brothers and sisters are treated like anyone else under the law, for if we are truly created equal, then surely the love we commit to one another must be equal as well.  And tonight, I’m so proud that the men and women elected to serve the people of the great state of Illinois have chosen to take us one step further on that journey to perfect our union.

Echoing the language of the Constitution’s Preamble, Obama seems to think that our nation will only be truly unified when we have nationally recognized all the forms of love we could possibly commit to one another. Some forms of love are obviously still illegal, but just give it time. In Obama’s clearly strict constructionist view of the Constitution, our Founding Fathers believed that our national integrity depended on same-sex marriage, so perhaps in a few years, we’ll realize that Washington, Jefferson, Madison, et al, also wanted us to legalize pedophilia and bestiality. But one perversion at a time, people. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

Notice also that his comments emphasize the civil nature of same-sex marriage laws. Obama believes that marriage is an exclusively civil agreement. Religious interpretations and ecclesiastical jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. So, in that sense, he believes religious freedom has been preserved simply because marriage has been defined outside of religion. “Your religious freedom is intact; we’ve just made your religion entirely irrelevant to this question. But feel free to keep practicing your neutralized religion by all means. Well, by the scant means we’ve left to you anyway.”

That is possibly the most radical part of same-sex marriage legislation. It has placed marriage, and the conversation about marriage, squarely under civil jurisdiction. You are no longer married “in the eyes of God and these witnesses.” The only witness necessary now, apparently, is the all-seeing eye of the State.

213 responses

  1. Ok, I am against same sex Marriage, and I honestly believe that everyone on both sides of this argument are going about it the wrong direction. The reality is that in terms of government ALL marriages are civil. The definition of civil I am using in this case is or or relating to ordinary CITIZENS. Citizens implies a relationship with a government, and in the case of government sponsored marriage it is a civil agreement.

    This is where I think everyone on both sides of the argument is wrong. The real issue here is about Marriage. (notice that I CAPITALIZE the word here.) Marriage, with a capital M, is a religious interpretation of a relationship between a man, a woman and God with the intent to bare children. In my religion Marriage is a sacrament and is held sacred.

    As I see it, those of us that have strong religious convictions need to start fighting these marriage laws in Courts as a breach of our first amendment right. The argument should be simple, Marriage is a religious institution and any laws that define marriage in anyway means the government is “making of [a] law respecting an establishment of religion.” That IS a violation of our Constitutional right.

    But alas, the religious extremists would rather force our religious beliefs on everyone rather than actually get Marriage out of the hands of our politicians.

    • This, my friend, is an excellent point. And one that I have been making since this whole debacle got started. The government is not in the Marriage business, but in the civil union business, and so the terminology needs to be straightened out before that very same term, marriage, is used to browbeat Christians into performing ceremonies against their will. It is already happening in Europe, so no one here can say that it won’t happen in our country..

    • Gays should have civil unions and normal people should have marriage. That’s the only fair way to do it. Marriage is an institution sanctioned by God for the purpose of making families, since families make for a strong nation. If we stop respecting God, then we are practicing idolatry.

      • Fair??? Civil unions don’t get NEAR the protections/advantages that marriages do & THAT’S the reason why our Supreme Court ruled the way it did

        • If the government didn’t provide anyone with a marriage license and instead gave out only civil unions licenses then all would be equal and the government would no longer be forcing certain religious principles upon everyone.

          • Forgive my asking, but why should the government have any right to get involved in a relationship between two people? Oh yeah that’s right, so they can interfere later when they extort all the different taxes they charge them, and so Lawyers can make money if the union breaks up, which happens about 60% of the time now, from what I understand.

          • That is really my point. Marriage should not be a matter for the government to decide, but in every State in the Union, we have accepted and come to expect government involvement in what should be obviously a Religious matter. But instead of arguing to get the government out of this business all together it seems both sides of the discussion want more involvement not less. But then the conservatives turn and argue that we need less government involvement when it comes to matter of healthcare.

            I have had plenty of discussions with people on both sides. They throw up arguments like government benefits only apply to a legal spouse. That argument has no basis, if the government doesn’t provide marriage licenses to anyone and instead replaces those certificates with Civil Union Recognition Permits then all government benefits applied to a Marriage License currently would apply to a CURP going forward. Their argument then carries no weight.

            Again, both sides have a middle ground here that can get everyone exactly what they want, but neither side is willing to agree with the other on anything.

          • Because there are certain benefits and requirements that warrant the creation of some kind of relationship with the government.
            Take two entities with the same income. One is an individual, the other is a couple both earn $150K per year. If their taxation is the same then the couple has less money, because it takes more to support two people than it does to support one. Therefore, a greater amount of their income goes into supporting them which means they have less real dollars to contribute to improving their lives.

            There are also laws that cover everything from transfer of assets upon death to privacy that all require some kind of government recognized link between to couples in order to prevent liability from others. For example, HIPA protects an individual’s privacy, but a family member has access to that information and is authorized to make decisions regarding care. A spouse (husband or wife, in most States) is considered a family member under the law; however, if you aren’t married you don’t get this information nor can you make care decisions, even if you have a Living Will.

        • Homosexuality is a big time sin in the eyes of God. Marriage, simply by definition, is between a man and a woman. Period. Gays don’t get to marry.

          • So now you got your venial sin, your mortal sin, and the MOTHER OF ALL SINS The deadly (Do not pass go, Do not collect 200 pesos, Go straight to hell)…………. Big Time Sin !!!!

            Well whup me till I bleed for my carnal thoughts!!!! Im Not Worthy, Im not worthy!!!!!!

            Mr. Bob, I think im gonna puke.

          • I never said I was, Sam. Your logic is the same one the Jews used to crucify the Nazarene. “There is a God and you’re not him, and you are cutting into our action so we are going to nail you to a tree”

            Religions are invented by man to usurp money and power from the masses.They make up stories that contain objects and things that people can relate to, then sneak in ridiculous episodes that people are supposed to take on faith.

            From Wikipedia:

            In religion, faith often involves accepting claims about the character
            of a deity, nature, or the universe. While some have argued that faith is opposed to reason, proponents of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence.

            In other words, leave your brain at the door.

            Take Moby Dick for instance. Yes there were whaling ships, yes there were harpoons. Does that mean that there was also a gigantic white whale?

          • Jagans, are you suggesting that plants, donkeys & snakes cannot talk? sticks cannot turn into snakes? humans cannot walk on water or rise from the dead? People cannot live in the belly of a fish for days? It cannot rain food for 40 years? two of every animal on the planet didn’t get on a wooden boat in the middle of the desert?

          • And I dont think that you have to teach it, I think it comes standard in every human, and it is destroyed by bigotry, hatred, and racism. And that comes from……………You guessed it…… The Parents!!! Who got it from…………You Guessed it…………………Their Parents, Who got it from………………………………..RELIGION

          • If morality came standard in every human being, then how do you explain barbarinism? We are barbarians without morality.

          • People are born instinctively knowing morality; even small children already know it as the:

            “But Mom! THEY STARTED IT! Rule.”

            Evil people know it, too – which is why they’re able to do the exact opposite without fail, all the time (if they were just stupid, they’d get some things right every now and then, simply by chance).

          • Are you a homosexual like me, no. You don’t get to decide what I can and can do for this country.

      • That is really the whole problem. Historically, government was only involved in Married, because the Leader of said government was “appointed by God.” We had Kings and Queens, and their subordinates that ruled over the people and approved their relationships.

        Today, that is no longer the case. Our leaders are chosen by us, and God (according to Thomas Jefferson) is not part of the Government. There is absolutely no reason for DOMA to exist if the government simply left Marriage to the Church (where it belongs) and simply granted all citizens civil unions.

    • For once, you need to see the view from both sides. In this article it shows how the government is trying to pry religion away from marriage. Whatever, that’s their belief and yours. What WE Christians and other religions believe, is they are tied together. And we are never going to seperate them. So you are only saying, “you are just plain wrong and need to do it our way” rather than letting us have our religous freedom and beliefs. So once again, you are violating our rights. We believe it, you don’t. We think its wrong, you don’t. No need for this constant barrage of us being bigots if we don’t accept something completely un natural.

      • So, if my “religious beliefs” is that woman, gays, or minorities, should NOT have the same rights as “straight” white males is giving those people equal rights violating my religious rights? Is it so difficult to understand that many people in this country do NOT share your beliefs & that you do NOT have the right to force your beliefs upon those that do not share them? NOBODY is forcing you to marry a gay person. Conservative Christians fought (and lost) the fight for interracial marriage, civil rights & woman suffrage. They got over it & will lose & get over giving gays the rights as the rest of Americans too regroup & continue their fight to take the food out of the mouths of hungry children

        • I understand not everyone shares my belief. At the same time not everyone shares your belief. So, stop with the bigot name calling and stop with shoving your beliefs in our faces. I’m not shoving mine on anyone. I just refuse to accept it morally and personally. And this whole food out of mouths of children argument. I donate to my local food bank and church. To those that mooch off the government and demand more food stamps for the kids they pop out or illegals that are here. I will say the same thing I say to my dead beat ex wife. Go get a job

          • You didn’t answer my question. IF my “religious beliefs” are that woman, minorities, gays, etc. should NOT have the same rights as “straight white males” is giving these people equal rights “shoving other beliefs down my throat”? When you stand against giving ANY American citizen equal rights you ARE shoving your beliefs upon other people.

          • Women vote and get jobs just as well as the next person. As do gays and minorities. So I don’t see where my beliefs come into play. Abortion is murder pure and simple. So is a moral issue to me more than choice. Same with same sex marriage. All legislative people had to do was give civil unions the same federal and state benefits as marriage does. Not change the whole definition and ruin it for everyone else to make the 1-2% minority happy. So yes, you forcing these decisions on religous people is wrong. When you change it all for everyone, ita forcing. When you could have just made certain excemptions rather than complete overhauling.

          • NOT!!! In MANY states an employer can fire an employee if they just THINK they are gay! Please explain how same sex marriage “ruins” marriage for “everyone else”? 50% of marriages end in divorce! MORE then 50% of married people cheat! Conservative Christians used the VERY same argument AGAINST interracial marriage

          • However those companies work, those aren’t my beliefs. I thought we were talking about my beliefs here. For centuries marriage has been celebrated largely as a religous ceremony. I say largely since not everyone in history has been religous in this country. So changing the definition and practice of it is a trample on our beliefs.

          • It wasn’t until 1967 that interracial marriage was legal & we changed the definition. Was THAT “trampling on your beliefs”?

          • I was born in 1983, so I can’t comment on the past since I didn’t live that. But if I must answer, no I have no problem with interracial marriage at all. In fact, I have a thing for asians lol

          • Talk to young people today & they say the same thing about same sex marriage which is why the GOP cannot get them to vote for them

          • Thats easy for you to say, since nearly all public schools and universities are liberal indoctrination centers.

          • It was trampling on a lot of evangelical preachers beliefs, Ill tell you that. Them and their little weenies were pissed. Now there are some real Hypocrites. I believe they will hit level 9 in DI

          • But how is what someone else does hurting you? Are your beliefs so tenuous that someone acting contrary to them cracks the cornerstone of your eternal destiny?

          • It’s about the moral decay of society as a whole. Not that it directly affects me. But soon enough, churches will be forced to give homosexual marriage ceremonies, unless they want major fines.

          • Sorry Barbie, Your much more likely to be fired for being a Christian than a Gay in todays America. And comparing Gays to the civil rights of Blacks is complete bull crap, it’s not morally wrong to be Black, and it’s obvious when one is black, not so much when one is Gay.

          • It is grotesque to suggest that Christians of any denomination are persecuted in any country in the west. It is however indicative on the mindset of Christians that in order to sustain
            the delusions of their faith, they have to adopt the politics of victimhood. I am astounded how often religious people confuse battles for equality with persecution, because equality cannot include the special privileges they feel entitled to

          • Starting on Sunday, a small-but-significant change will begin to affect hundreds of thousands of young British girls around the United Kingdom. All new members of the 450,000-strong Girlguiding organization in the U.K. will no longer promise to “love my God,” but rather “to be true to myself and develop my beliefs.”

            This controversial change in the membership pledge came after the Girlguiding organization, the U.K. equivalent to the American Girl Scouts, polled more than 40,000 members and found that 37 percent of the girls “do not believe in a god.” Nearly one in four of all 8-year-old girls in the U.K. are Girlguiding members.

            The shift in the Girlguiding pledge is highly indicative of the major cultural and religious changes sweeping across Western Europe. Traditionally considered a continent dominated by Christianity,orthodox Christian values today are espoused by only a minority of Western Europeans. Conservative Christian views on everything from abortion to marriage to euthanasia are considered not only outdated, but actually offensive.

            Just a little over 100 years ago, more than 80 percent of all of the world’s Christians lived in either Europe or North America. Today, that number has dropped below 40 percent and the steepest decline has been in Europe. It’s now believed that more Christians attend church on Sunday morning in China than on the entire European continent.

            The number of evangelical Christians, a movement that is relatively outspoken in espousing Christian doctrine, is estimated to comprise less than five percent of Western Europe’s population (in the U.S., evangelicals still make up about 40 percent of all Americans). According to the Center for Study on Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, the only major religion in Western Europe that is currently growing is Islam.

            The revision of the Girlguiding pledge is not the only indicator that cultural values have shifted away from traditional Christian beliefs. On Aug. 20, Barrie and Tony Dewitt-Barlow, a wealthy gay couple in the U.K., confirmed that they would be filing a lawsuit challenging the British government’s decision allowing some religious groups to opt-out of marrying same-sex couples. The first same-sex weddings are expected to begin in the U.K. in 2014 after legislation earlier this year legalized gay marriage.

            On July 1, American street preacher Tony Miano was arrested by London police for making “homophobic” remarks. He was preaching on sexual immorality and pointedly condemned all forms of “immoral sexual conduct.” This was too much for passers-by, and the police were called. After seven hours under arrest, police decided against pressing charges and Miano was released.

            Last year, four Christians in Western Europe who were fired from their jobs for either wearing crosses or refusing to endorse homosexual partnerships took their cases to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France. The court ruled against three of the four, saying that only one, a British Airways employee, had a right to wear her cross necklace because the airline had made earlier provisions for employees of other faiths to wear religious items.

            Last month, the Obama administration ruled that a Christian family which had fled to the U.S. from Germany after facing fines and prosecution for homeschooling their children would not be eligible for asylum. In 1938, under Adolf Hitler’s National Socialist Party, Germany passed a law requiring all families to send children to public school. This law remains on the books today and is defended as a way to promote “social integration and cohesion.”

            Unfortunately for the Romeikes, who desired to teach their children along orthodox Christian lines and prevent exposure to anti-biblical concepts, this law means possible fines, jail time, and the loss of their children for refusing to send their kids to public school if they return to Germany. Their legal counsel is currently taking their fight against deportation back to Germany to the U.S. Supreme Court.

            While all of these events taken by themselves may not yet warrant the title of outright religious persecution, it is becoming increasingly clear that discrimination against and contempt for conservative Christian values are essentially the norm in Western Europe today. Ironically, when, and if, widespread outright persecution does begin to take place, it will largely go unnoticed, if only because there are so few Christians left who believe in what used to be considered orthodox Christian teaching.

            Those who are willing to publicly declare their religious beliefs are fewer still. How much longer conservative Christians will even have this right, if they still do, is unclear. With so few conservative evangelical Christians, it seems that when the last day of free religious speech in Western Europe does end, it will not be with a bang but a whimper. If any Christians are still paying attention on that day, chances are they won’t be living in Europe.

            This article originally appeared on persecution.org.

          • I have a MAJOR problem with Islam & think it’s a pox on the world. However, it’s NOT Muslims that are trying to take rights away from American citizens (they make up 2%of the population) it’s Christians.

          • You got Divorced? You are damned to hell for all eternity, so you may as well do as you please, Buck. Oh, the laws were changed? Death do us part isn’t in this week?

            I guess religions have to change with the times though, otherwise, they would end up with nobody.

          • First off, she cheated on me and broke the covenant of marriage. Also, if we want to get on technical rules, Jesus did say someone re-marrying is a form of adultery, but needs to be looked at in certain context. But since you wouldn’t pay attention to that, I’ll give you a benefit of the doubt response instead. Which is, we are all sinners, and never perfect. But try to live our lives as much as Jesus did while being forgiven after accepting him into our lives and being baptized. Does that mean I can go out and murder a whole bunch of people then ask for forgiveness and still go to heaven? No. Why? Because when you accept Jesus, you don’t want to do those things anymore, you want to be more like Him (Jesus says hating someone is just the same as murder). So accepting Christ into your life isn’t some “get out of jail free card.” You either stay a Christian, or don’t.

          • Sorry about that, and hope you have found happiness with someone else. I like what Jesus represents, and I seriously doubt that he would have said that about re-committing yourself to someone. If I read him correctly, he was about Love, not Laws.

            Once again, its mans interpretation that I have a problem with, it has never been “the Nazarene”

        • It is the gays who are forcing their beliefs on everyone. Marriage between a man and woman has been around 3,000 years and it works. Who are you to say that God is wrong? There is one thing that God cannot do. He cannot lie.

          • Well according to the law of Moses a woman that’s been raped has to marry her rapist, a man must marry his brother’s widow if she is childless, a non virgin bride is put to death, you can marry your sister, have many wife’s, take prisoners & make them your wife’s, etc, etc, etc. & where did Moses get thses laws????? GOD!!!!!

          • Chapter and verse, please. God gave Moses the Ten Commandments for the main laws. Then he gave them laws in order to teach them to obey and be a civilized nation. I never heard of what you say so I would like to read where it is.

          • If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.(Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

          • Of course NOT! It’s just the law of Moses given to him by GOD!!! Christians look at the content of their religious teachings and they basically pick and choose what suits their own secular outlook. They see in their faith what they want to see as they live their daily lives, and simultaneously ignore the rest.

          • Yeah but once he pays he can convert to Islam and stone her to death for being a dirty adulteress and dishonoring herself with his Penis. In fact, I think the Jews could do that too back then without even converting. They just charged more.

          • The Jews have it up to 613 at last count Read Micheners “The Source” unless of course you are like the others here, and all you read is the bible, Saint Thomas Aquinas, Jimmy Swagert, Pat Robertson, and Joseph Smith

          • No, According to the Bible, Moses was given ten commandments what is this “Then he gave them laws” What amazes me about the ten commandments, is the presumption that an all powerful entity that was able to create the entire universe would actually stoop to the uniquely human trait of Jealousy, and apparently envy. The first four commandments are about him. God would not make it about him.

          • God IS a jealous God. That’s because He knows there is no other and He doesn’t like it when we worship idols. We can practice intellectual idolatry where we think we are smarter than God. The First Commandment says not to have any other gods before Him. He means it.

          • Christians are not hypocritical in not applying some of the Mosaic laws.

            A. Atheist critics accuse Christians of hypocrisy in claiming that certain regulations
            in the Old Testament do not apply today while insisting that others do. But this is simply a
            failure to understand the nature of the Mosaic covenant.

            B. The Mosaic covenant, the old covenant, was a temporary pact or covenant that
            was entered into by God and the people of Israel at Sinai (Ex. 20:1 – 24:8). The Mosaic law
            that was part of that covenant specified the way in which the faith of God’s people was to be
            expressed until Christ came.

            C. Some of the commands in the law of the Mosaic covenant were not universal
            moral desires of God. They erected civil and ceremonial or ritualistic (“amoral”) distinctions
            between Jews and Gentiles, at least in part to keep the people of God untainted by pagan
            practices in order to help them serve as a witness to their Gentile neighbors of the blessed
            life that exists under God. A distinction between the commandments of the law is evident in

            1 Cor. 7:19 (TNIV): Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s
            commands is what counts.

            D. A new covenant was instituted between God and mankind through the sacrifice
            of Christ, the effect of which was to render the old covenant, the Mosaic covenant, obsolete
            or no longer operative (2 Cor. 3:4-18; Gal. 3:15 — 4:7, 4:21-3 1; Heb. 7:11-22, 8:6-13). And
            with the fulfillment in Christ of the planned obsolescence of the Mosaic covenant, the set of
            commands that were part of that covenant, the Mosaic law, ceased to be binding.

            E. Though the set of commands that constitute the Mosaic law ceased to be binding,
            many of the individual commands that were part of that set have an ongoing or renewed
            applicability, and indeed find their full expression, in the new covenant.

            1.For example, Paul in Eph. 6:2 commands children to “honor your father
            and mother,” quoting from the Ten Commandments in Ex. 20:12 and Deut. 5:16. The Ten
            Commandments also are reflected in N.T. commands and prohibitions against murder,
            adultery, stealing, lying, and coveting. Indeed, there are literally hundreds of commands in
            the N.T. – dos and don’ts – issued by Spirit-inspired writers.

            2. You see, the obsolescence of the Mosaic law does not mean that none of
            the commands that were part of that set of laws has any applicability in the new covenant.
            The concept is something like moving from one state to another. I’m no longer under
            “Florida law,” but the “Arizona law” that I am under includes many of the same
            requirements.

            F. The fundamental ethical requirement for the Christian is love (Mat. 7:12,22:37-
            40; Rom. 13:8-10; Gal. 5:14), but some specific conduct is loving and other conduct is not.
            Love is the center, but there are definite requirements on how it expresses itself. As Paul
            indicates in Rom. 13:9, the command to love your neighbor as yourself encompasses the
            commands of the law not to commit adultery, not to murder, not to steal, and not to covet
            (and other commands he does not specify). Thus, the Christian, though not being under the
            Mosaic law, the set of commands that are part of Mosaic covenant, upholds the transcendent
            moral requirements that are included in that law (e.g., Rom. 13:8-10; 1 Cor. 10:14; Eph.
            6:2). This ongoing moral law, centered in love, is the “law of Christ” (see 1 Cor. 9:21 and
            Gal. 6:2 with 5:14).

            G. So there is a clear biblical rationale for not binding commands from the Mosaic
            law relating to food, circumcision, ritual impurity, and other amoral elements related
            specifically to Israel’s role as a theocracy in preparing the way for the Christ. It is not an
            arbitrary picking and choosing, as New Atheists charge, but a theological recognition of the
            impact of Christ’s coming.

            H. And since the church, the people of God, are no longer a nation-state like Israel
            but are scattered among many nations throughout the world, the obligation imposed by God
            on Israel to mete out certain penalties for various sins does not apply to the church. That
            obligation was tied to Israel’s identity as a nation, a civil government. As Tim Keller has
            noted: “The church is not a civil government, and so sins are dealt with by exhortation and,
            at worst, exclusion from membership. This is how Paul deals with a case of incest in the
            Corinthian church (1 Cor. 5:lff. and 2 Cor. 2:7-11). Why this change? Under Christ, the
            gospel is not confined to a single nation—it has been released to go into all cultures and
            peoples.”

          • I hear so many Christians now a days claim that the Old Testament is defunct for Jesus was the “lamb” to clear away its rules and regulations. This is just another bullshit scapegoat that Christians use to ignore the atrocities and bizarre laws commanded by their god. Their preachers spoon feed them that the Old Testament is no longer binding so that they can excuse the majority of evil that the bible promotes. I am so tired of Christians manipulating the scriptures so that they can assign a kinder nature to their God

            “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19)

            “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

            “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness…” (2 Timothy 3:16)

            Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.” (2 Peter 20-21)

            Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,…” (John 1:17).

          • I just gave you plenty of Biblical text, examples, and reasons why we don’t follow old Jewish law, and you still won’t listen. How open minded of you.

          • This dubious interpretation that the OT is no longer valid is relatively new & something Christians had to come up with to live in secular societies

          • So you have been authorized to interpret the word of GOD? Do you consider yourself a Prophet, as did Mohammad?

          • Seeing as how I gave plenty of Bible verses to back my “interpriations” as you put it, I hardly think I’m trying to re-write anything for my own benefit. I merely quoted and gave examples why, who, and where in the Bible it states we don’t follow all old Jewish law anymore, or The Old Covenant as some call it.

          • The Rainbow Covenant, after the Deluge, you mean? The one that Noah made with God? The one where Noah was severely mauled by a lion in the ARK so his son Shem ( the father of the Semites) had to make the blood sacrifice of a ram to God, because Noah was wounded, and so SHEM became the most favored son and the Paternal Patriarch of the Jews?

            Question: Wouldn’t you have thought that God could have healed Noah’s wounds? I guess Jesus had more powers than his father, huh?

          • I am absolutely amazed that we got all of this out of 10 very simple straightforward commandments.

            This is a lot like the US Federal Governments interpretation of the Constitution. Do you see the analogy here? Bait and switch, change the rules as you go along, Hell, in the dark ages the church would change the laws in Rome, and the poor slobs out in the country were put to death because they didn’t get the memo in time. Its like riding your moral compass over the North pole.

            Read about the first council of Nicaea, they invited everybody, pagans and all so they could get the story to jive with all of the myths. You know Easter Bunnies, The rights of Spring, and on and on. I still don’t get the circumcision thing though, oops never mind, it just came to me.

          • How are gay people forcing their beleifs on you???

            Some religions allow a man to have several wives. The Mormons, and Islam are just two examples. In fact, Mohammad went back up on the mountain to have the rules changed so he could have a few more. I think Joe Smith had 27. When you are a Prophet, you can make up and change the rules as you go along. Nice work if you can get it.

          • Mormanism isn’t Christianity. Yes there are many denominations of Christianity, or off-shoots if you want to call them that. However, many of these sects bastardize or change for their own benefit, many of the laws set by Jesus and God, even change the Bible itself. Or add to it, such as the book of mormon, or worshiping of saints. These are not true Christians. Neither or those during the Spanish Inquisition or Salem witch trials. Or those morons in Westboro today. You need to look at the individual, or even individual “branch” of Christianity, then you can make your accusations. Even if there are thousands of differences, there is only one way to heaven, accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior and leading a life according to His teachings.

          • So Roman Catholics aren’t Christain’s? The ones that were fed to the Lions, scourged, flayed alive, grilled on gridirons, stoned to death etc etc??????? Quakers and Puritans arent Christains? How about Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc. etc. etc. Mormons believe in Jesus Christ, The Father and The Holy Spirit. They just have a later day “prophet” named Joseph Smith.

          • Christianity started right after Christ ascended to heaven. Catholicism didn’t come until several centuries later. Mormons do not accept Jesus Christ as their savior, but as a star baby and brother of Lucifer. Read about Mormons before debate.

          • Wrong again.

            John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”

            Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

    • Mr. Boob is just excited because he announced his “engagement” this week . . . to a donkey.

      Since people can now “marry anything” in Kalifornia Bob ran down to the local farm sale and bought himself a bride. The boys at the farm sale played a joke on Bob and sold him a male donkey . . . but the joke was on him because Bob didn’t mind at all!

      • DON’T get too excited!!!! You’re still NOT allowed to marry your daughter!!! Just think how MAD your sister would be!!!!

          • Well, I think I have identified your problem! You shouldn’t think! leave that to people with an IQ above plant life.

        • I am down right entertained that you have nothing to contribute, rather you counter with the ideas and techniques of others.

          Any logical person would call you a puppet . . . even if that is bestowing to much credit on your behalf.

    • And Non religious people like you have got to realize they can’t use the shield of Atheism to hide from God’s inevitable judgement.

        • Yup, that wraps it up. How can you argue with someone that says you will be judged by an entity that has never been scientifically proven to exist? You just cant win that argument, Bob. Insightful Indeed!

          OK Guys, time to damn me to hell. You know, the one that your all merciful, all loving, all forgiving, Jealous diety saves for guys like me and Bob.

          Religion is Poison. It causes Wars. Wake up.

        • You are one sick, twisted person. Some adults really warped your childhood—you were probably raped like Chastity Bono and Harry Hay—to have an anal fixation and a total irrational worldview where you throw out Science and Reason for absurd nihilistic acts. Such a warped evil vile way to look at your fellow men with lust. Really disturbing to dehumanize people in such a way.

          • Now that is amazing how religious people can selectively invoke science and reason at will. Here we buy it, but there we don’t. Science is not a Chinese Menu, allowing One from column A, and One from Column B. Thanks to religion, people like Copernicus had to hide in the attic, and priests bled people, and put feces on wounds. Read Pillars of the Earth, and World Without End will you? Ken Follet. Hes Great.

          • You so ignorant—you are talking about Christians who left the third world practices of the pagans and sodomites and child sacrificers for Truth/God–and the idea of Individual Rights from God—-not being slaves—which all other cultures are. Name one culture that is non- Judeo-Christian that isn’t made up total slavery and voo doo practices or baby-rapers.

            Only in Christian nations did the idea of Science flourish to extreme progress and inventions—because of that search for Truth (God). That idea was started—yes, by Greek pagans—but with Christian Ethics taking over the Stoics, it gave way to Newton and Einstein. Only in Christian nations did freedom occur and flourish and that essential idea of Individualism—Individual Rights from God—no other ideology gives dignity and worth to all human beings, even the unborn. (Can people call themselves Christians and practice Satanism??????(like zero)—Of course. Your ACTIONS determine whether you are a true Christian).

            “Pillars of the Earth” was fiction—I read it years ago and was actually quite bored with it, because works by St. Thomas Aquinas and Anselm and Boethius and St. Augustine is so much more profound and brilliant—-and Truth is always much more interesting than someone’s made up “vision” of “truth”. I don’t care for fiction although I did like Brave New World and 1984. You should read those—because sodomy ethics fits in with slave, irrational utopianism where “Up is Down” and “Slavery is Freedom”—and being fixated on an anal cavity is “Good” and “Love”. There is no Natural Family–the word mother causes vomiting.

            How warped you are if you believe such idiocy an fecal worship. It is the ultimate mocking of God’s Design of the human body—and rejection of Truth/Biology. You do NOT stick stuff in a cavity made only for excretion. Are you so irrational and fall for The Big Lies of the vile Leftists who want you only as a slave or to kill you when you become over 40???

            I walked to the top of the Dome in Florence and seen the brilliance of Catholic Theology which no other art or ideologies produced. Ideas matter.

            Are you so stupid you don’t know that Natural Law Theory is what makes Science possible (Cause and Effect)????? St. Thomas Aquinas perfected Natural Law Theory—which led to the Age of Reason and Enlightenment (Science) which would not have been possible with Catholic Theology. Read the Summa—if you want to read the most Common Sensical work in the history of man.

            You think evil only happens in “Christian” cultures???? HA HA HA. You haven’t studied the pagans—the Aztecs–the vile Egyptian practices—or the Persians bashing in heads of first born boys—-or the harems of boys in Afghanistan today who are sodomized and can’t wait to have harems when they grow up.

            You are just so ignorant of Truth. It is quite pathetic–but I wasn’t raised in public schools and I am like Machiavelli—-a history nut—-not a “fiction” nut. I live in Reality.

          • You tell me that science progressed BECAUSE OF RELIGION????????? and you call me ignorant? Copernicus was accused of Blasphemy because he put fourth the premise that the earth revolved around the sun!

            Science progressed IN SPITE OF RELIGION, BECAUSE IT IS BASED ON PROVEN, REPEATABLE EXPERIMENTATION AND LOGIC, NOT ON FICTION, AND MYTHS THAT HAVE NO BASIS IN FACT!

            I never said that “evil happens only in christian cultures” YOU DID. I also did not say that sodomy is natural, and where did you come up with FECAL WORSHIP?????

            I will say, however, that the more “RELIGIOUS” a religion is, the more FANATIC, and judgemental IT IS.

            LOOK AT ISLAM FOR GODS SAKE, The Arabs were at the head of scientific discovery until Muhammad came along, and the POW, their science fell off a cliff, because they were afraid of what science might reveal.

            I’m sorry, but Islam is an Abrahamic based religion just like Christianity, and Judaism is. In fact, Ismael was Abraham’s FIRST BORN SON

            Yes the Vatican is an amazing piece of architecture, and I bet it is EXACTLY THE TYPE OF HOUSE THAT CHRIST WOULD HAVE BUILT FOR HIMSELF, considering his teachings, which, by the way, I wholeheartedly agree with. I just don’t agree with the charlatans that made up the rules at Nicaea.

          • You are SOOOOOO ignorant!!!!! You are a “useful idiot” to spread such lies!!! You are a TOOL of the godless Left. Grow up!!!! Educate yourself with the TRUTH!!!!! Copernicus DIED before his “On the Revolutions…” was read and studied…..you are thinking of Galileo—I read biographies on him AND HE WASN”T PERSECUTED!!! He was a devout Catholic at his death and his daughter was his closest friend and she was a nun. I read letters that still exist written by the daughter.

            Galileo was under house arrest only and he even wrote one of his most brilliant papers during this time which he published.

            Because he would not admit that his paper “Dialogue…” was not the “Truth” since the Catholic Church was NOT GIVEN enough “PROOF” of the truth of his “theories” —-the Catholic Church did NOT torture him—he was in his 70’s or 80’s. The Pope used to be a great friend of him and was actually an admirer of him. There were cardinals/bishops who were very jealous of Galileo’s brilliance and friendship with the Pope—from when he use to debate them–he would make them look like fools and those men were just human and not very “Catholic” and tried to destroy him from within the Vatican. Political intrigue is NOT unique to the Catholic Church. It exists EVERYWHERE there are human beings.

            Galileo (and Copernicus) had big problems with their theory. The Catholic Church just told Galileo that he couldn’t claim he had the Truth–with a capital “T”–he needed to admit it was a theory.

            Galileo was WRONG—and it was Kepler who had the correct theory at that time which actually proved the heliocentric theory and the Church had no problem identifying the “Truth” and accepting that theory as the truth with a small “T”.

            You don’t understand the times or human nature (grow up). Pride and institutions create imperfect everything–whether it is the Catholic Church or the Henry VIII’s “Church” where it was “Good” to divorce and chop off heads of x-wives.

            This has NOTHING to do with Christian Ethics—-which would condemn any act which destroys the dignity and worth of any individual.

            The idea of caring for the poor and the outcasts and the “Samaritans” is a Christian concept which never existed in any pagan/occult –even Jewish nations. It was radical.

            Jesus Christ was a radical. He caused a Revolution. Why—because he stood for the Truth and individual dignity in all human beings. He was killed for the “Truth”. Socrates was killed because he told the truth. St. Paui—all the Saints were killed for saying the Truth.

            Brietbart was killed because he stated the truth–or was going to state the truth. Truth is dangerous (Think about why the MSM doesn’t allow truth anymore). First thing Hitler and Lenin did was get total control of all ideas allowed—so they could shaper all perceptions.

            Machiavelli stated—-the Truth is hated more than Lies.

            Think about it…..The Truth is hard to swallow—much harder than Lies. You will NOT KNOW THE TRUTH unless you spend months and years studying history—original sources—not Marxist’s interpretations of Christianity and Catholicism. Do YOUR OWN LEG WORK—don’t let the Left posit LIES in your head with Wikipedia or their other biased Leftist tripe……The Truth will set you Free!!!

            I’ve taken Philosophy of Science recently. True scientists don’t EVER say they have the “Truth” with a capital “T”. NEVER! All their theories will be disproved–and even Einstein knew that “theories” were just that, and would be replaced eventually. He was awed by the fact that he knew so little about Reality.

            I am a pre-Vatican II Catholic. You might call me a Thomist. I love Catholic Theology—it is pure Common Sense–aligned not just to all the words in the Bible which are the wisest on human nature–ever written—(before Protestants eliminated part of it)—-but because of the Father of Catholic Theology—St. Thomas A.—who aligned Natural Law Theory (Science/Reason) to the Catholic Canon. He stated there is no way Reason/Truth could conflict with Faith/Bible since God was the creator of all.

          • What did I lie about?

            You mean you actually believe that innocent little babies are actually born with original sin?

            You believe that an all powerful Deity had to create a human son and have him butchered to get rid of this sin?

            You believe that unbaptized babies got to Limbo?

            You believe that the Pope is infallible, and his words come from God?

            You have every right to believe this, as it is Pure Catholic Common Sense, as you say.

          • You lied about Copernicus–for ONE. And the “persecution” by the Catholic Church.

            The Catholic Church is about Truth, only, and saving souls and preserving Knowledge and Traditions. Do they have corruption in the Church? Absolutely! There are no perfect human beings if you haven’t noticed—what the Church teaches.

            As a matter of fact—I think Vatican II was a coup by Freemasons/Marxists, so I believe this pope is NOT infallible. I do believe in the Catholic Canon, though—like the SSPX. You do not understand “infallibility” of the pope. It is very limited and has to be in line with the Catholic Canon.

            I believe the Bible is the Word of God—like the Catholic Canon—and that interpretation of every word has been debated for centuries by Catholic Theologians, so is as close to “Truth” as man can get—since God is incomprehensible to man.

            The Catholic Church uses logic/debate (Aristotelian Logic) to interpret the Bible—debate/dialectics is the only way to logic/truth. It is why the Catholic Canon is solid theology–it is the longest debated canon— and they have never caved on contraception and other dehumanizing acts which Protestants caved to. Using human beings as a “Means to an End”—is never OK in Christian Ethics. Never. It is evil and nihilism.

            I gave birth to five children, and, YES!!!! they are not born “good” as Marxist/Rousseauians would state. They are selfish and narcissistic and incapable of empathy and “thinking of others before themselves”.

            Like Aristotle claimed in his Nicomachean Ethics—and as Socrates even knew and ALL TRUE CATHOLICS know—Virtue is habituated in children. IOW, Virtues (morality) is taught—it is modeled, it is learned. That is why education is the DUTY of parents.

          • There was no persecution carried out by the Catholic Church ???????? There were no Knights Templar, and they were never tortured? No Inquisition?

            I have never even heard of anyone with such an incredible ability to discard historically recorded facts, and yet accept hearsay and myth as irrefutable fact.

            If this affords you happiness, then so be it. I will continue to search for truth.

          • You think the Catholic Church did more “persecution” than the Athiest/pagans did to the Catholic Church throughout history????? Have you totally ignored the early Christians and the Armenians and Christians killed by the Nazis and Muslims throughout history? Did you ever read about the acts by the Atheist/Marxist French Revolutionaries who defecated in the churches, as they took them over, and had orgies in them—and killed the priests and nuns as they raped and sodomized them?

            How about the Marxists in Mexico—Christeros—-where the priests were mutilated and hung and churches desecrated and nuns murdered and raped in that order. Hundreds of poor Mexican Christians were killed. How about when the French Revolutionaries (Atheists) took the headless bodies and put them in homoerotic positions for all to see, desecrating dead bodies. How about the Marxists in the Spanish Civil War who dug up the dead bodies at Catholic cemeteries to do the same obscene things (Eric von K-L”s book “Leftism Revisited”. Did you realize that the Pope excommunicated the Knights Templar group because they were sodomites and vicious—much like the Samurai and Spartans—sodomites who could brutalize women and children? Infiltration and intrigue will always exist everywhere —it is not exclusive to the Catholic Church. They have been the least brutal.

            Truth will set you free. I thought like you until I read the true history—not somebody’s version of it—I read the original sources —the encyclicals of the popes (Read Pascendi by Pope Pius X—and John Locke’s work and Montesquieu’s and Tocqueville. Don’t read someone’s warped version of history because Progressives/Marxists have had total control over publishing and media for 100 years now and they slant everything. They are forcing Atheism/paganism on our children to erase the two pillars of Western Civ—Christianity and the Natural Family. Every movie–every book is slanted to erase all traditions and ideology which made this country flourish—to collapse it. (Read about Gramsci and Adorno).

            Read the Communist Manifesto—see what is necessary for the destruction of Western Civ—read the Cultural Marxists works (Lukacs who invented Sex Ed to corrupt and warp the sexual identity formation of our children.) Controlling the minds of children during the formative years gives the future to whoever designed the curricula—(Billy Ayers-types)….they are creating the worldview of you and todays graduates. I just graduated from school—after raising my children—and I saw how dumb the students were—it was shocking!!! My kids went to Catholic and private schools where the intelligence level was much higher along with moral behavior.

            Are Catholics perfect????? No—but their thousands of years of reasoned ideology is superior to islam/paganism/atheism and most Christian sects. The idea that hierarchy is evil—-is bunk—-that CEO concept is evident in all animal life to prevent chaos and form efficient institutions which can’t function without hierarchy. Same with family—women are more efficient raising children—and it is the design of nature which creates the most emotionally sound children.

            The Catholic Church preserved so many books—and they saved the Greek interpretations—which was twisted by the Muslim slant and warped of the words and “thinking” of Aristotle and Plato—-that rediscovery by the monks of the original Greek texts is what led to the Renaissance and Age of Reason. They had been using muslim translations which were very warped to make Aristotle and Plato agree with Islam. Muslims burnt many libraries and books–the Catholic Church preserved vast libraries of manuscripts. Without Catholic ideology and the monasteries—-we would be as backward as Islam and African tribes trying to reinvent the wheel.

            All ideas are built upon—–and transferred to the next generation. Trying to find “Truth” used to be the goal of the Catholic Church until Vatican II—which now blurs the Truth. Blurring Truth is evil —always. But as Machiavelli stated—the Truth is more hated than the Lies. He was exiled for daring to write the truth also.
            The Truth is feared by Marxists/Atheists/Satanists…..you can tell who has the “truth” by who is vilified by the Satanists/Atheists/Sodomites.

          • To answer your first question, no I do not.

            I think that anyone that persecutes another for their beliefs is sick, as long as those beliefs do not include blood sacrifice or twisting the minds of or hurting children.

            Thank you for the reading list, I will pursue those texts, unfortunately I read “The Whig Interpretation of History” so I am not gullible enough to think that a Pope would not have an agenda, but you reference some very select authors, so thank you.

            You are clearly well read

          • Thank you. I raised my five children and worked in schools so understand very much “how” children learn and how their worldview is formed. ‘Preventing hurt to children’ is my great concern, also. It always has been. When I studied John Dewey and the public schools and the men who actually wrote the textbooks in the 30s, I was appalled. I have the original McGuffey books–the curricula before Dewey destroyed the public school curricula. (on purpose). He was an avid socialist and friends with the Fabians—who wanted to destroy the family and collapse Western Civilization.

            I read Whittaker Chambers’ book “Witness” and he wrote it in 52 or so and stated very clearly (he had been a Communist) that there was a culture war in the USA—it was God v. Man and man was winning.

            Read the original source books–not versions of someone else’s work—–that is how you gain true Knowledge. Study/reading creates great minds. If you have young children, make sure you read to them and reading becomes a joy. I would throw out the TV if I was raising small children today.

          • Bull. Aztecs? Mayans? Persians? Samurai? Stalin? Hitler? Mao? Pol Pot? Jacobins? John Maynard Keynes—the homosexual? The homosexual serial killers, like John Gacy?

            True—no group is free from atrocities…..but you are comparing apples and oranges.

          • Hitler??? Hitler was a Christian & Germany was a Christian nation. The difference between Christians & Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc was that Christians have been at it for 2,000 years

          • Hitler was a supreme evil pervert—he banned Christians from the Nazi party. They were occultists—not Catholic/Christians. Neitzsche (God is Dead) statue was in his office—he hated Christianity, as much as the Postmodernists/Darwinists/Atheists since he thought it bred weakness.

            From your own Leftist “Wikipedia”: .

            [t]he belief that Hitler is homosexual has probably developed (a) from the fact that he does show so many feminine characteristics, and (b) from the fact that there were so many homosexuals in the Party during the early days and many continue to occupy important positions. It is probably true that Hitler calls Foerster”Bubi”, which is a common nickname employed by homosexuals in addressing their partners. This alone, however, is not adequate proof that he has actually indulged in homosexual practices with Foerster, who is known to be a homosexual.[15]Langer’s report also concluded that Hitler loved pornography and masochistic sex, and in particular that he had “coprophagic tendencies or their milder manifestations” in his heterosexual relationships, and masochistically derived “sexual gratification from the act of having a woman urinate or defecate on him.”[16]

            Actions are what determine worldview—Hitler couldn’t be a Christian which such an evil perverse Worldview. You need to read the “Hidden Hitler” and “The Pink Swastika”.

            Flaming homosexuals who rape little boys are not Christian. You need to read Bella Dodd’s book also—you know—the one about the homosexual Marxists who infiltrated the Catholic Church to destroy it from within—Dodd was an ex-Communist, baptized by ABP Fulton Sheen in the 50s—and she was murdered for telling the Truth.

            People who “Look” at others and get aroused at anal cavities and fecal material are mentally ill. Hitler had a Daddy issue. His father kicked him like a dog when he was a little boy—he hated human beings—but himself most of all. (Really hate of God).

          • The difference between being “devout” and being
            “nuts”
            1. “I am Napoleon.” Nobody else agrees. You’re nuts.
            2. “This wafer is transubstantiated into the body of Christ.” Millions agree. You’re devout.

          • OK, then why, since there is so much speculation, and “Faith” like in “You just have to have faith” as the standard answer to things that we do not understand, is Religion considered as undeniable truth, and science is considered theory?

            I went to church last Christmas, and the deacon annonced that if there were any non-catholics present, they could receive a blessing from the priest, but they could not receive communion, so would they please just cross their arms on their chest when they approach the alter. That was it for me. I knew right there that this religion was not what Jesus Christ had in mind when he walked the earth.

            I have not even mentioned the pedophilia that has been discovered to exist throughout the church, but it cannot be ignored, as the leaders of the church seem to prefer, but then they are very good at ignoring things, especially the things that Jesus Christ tried to tell us.

            I do admire your Blind Faith, though.

          • Faith and Reason can not be separated (St. Thomas A.) Every idea you have is based on hundreds of assumptions—faith that YOU have. Faith in some authority who stated “facts” that you happen to believe—“facts” which I could prove are not true.

            Who is your authority for all your assumptions????? Public school ‘teachers” who quote marxist tripe and lies and misinformation. Some “science” which will be overturned in a decade or so?

            Mine is the Judeo-Christian God—no other. That Divine Authority has been proven throughout thousands of years to be absolutely correct on everything concerning human nature—-when you follow “God’s Laws”, you are supremely happy. Disobey his laws and you end up miserable—and you have no long term healthy relationships—which is what ultimately gives true happiness.

            My faith is NOT blind—it is reasoned…..as far as reason can go….. But you see—scientists know they don’t have the Truth either. All science takes “faith” also. Some scientists choose to have God be where they put their faith, since Design in the universe is provable, which points to a Designer—as far as science can take us.

            Faith is a part of the human being as much as uniqueness and nature. Remove faith–and you no longer have a “human being”. When you admit you have faith (all people do)—then you have to examine all your beliefs—-that is when you seek the truth. If you seek it —you will discover MUCH!!!!! but will never be able to know ALL.

          • If ‘faith’ was based on evidence then it would be called ‘knowledge’. It isn’t because it isn’t.

          • Faith can be reasoned to a point—that is what St. Thomas A. proved in the “Summa”. Yes, there are things which are beyond human comprehension—-but YOU don’t have the answer either, and YOUR “faith” isn’t more profound than Catholic Theology—I will guarantee that your “thinking” does not even come close to the centuries of debating the most profound ideas in the history of man. Christian explanations of Life give dignity and freedom to ALL human beings—no other “faith” gives “Individual” Rights from GOD”–not the state. Collectivism/pantheism/paganism removes rights and kills individuals that don’t conform to their fascist rules which reject Natural Laws (reason and science)–and they destroy private property rights and make the virtuous slaves of the evil/sloths/immoral. It is evil to enslave people—whether by law or lusts.

            Atheists have FAITH in the origins that have NOT been proven and make no sense. St. Augustine (4th century) had the correct “big bang” and time theory which took scientists hundreds of years to reach—but they claim their “faith” is the one true faith and forcing their irrationality/slavery/sodomy on us through force of law (which is unconstitutional in the USA). Justice is a Virtue and for Just Law to be “Just” it promotes only virtue (Cicero—a pagan).

          • The most basic truth about religious belief is
            its utter failure to learn new things from and by experience; it is fossilized thought Saying you don’t believe in Evolution is like saying you don’t believe in ice. You can only “believe” in something for which there is no proof. Once there is proof, you are either ignorant about that proof or you are not. Your opinion has no baring whatsoever on existence

          • That is where your Marxist/Progressive “thinking” warps you. The Nature of Man has never changed. From the beginning–Cain killing Abel—is the same—-man is basically evil without God. It is the nature of man to be selfish and greedy and self-serving. Jesus modeled selflessness which is the only way to find happiness in any type of relationship on earth. It is so perfect. Jesus is perfection. No other concepts in philosophy or theology have created better example of a “way of life” than Jesus. It works. Nothing else works. The Natural Family is essential to happiness and understanding of all human beings and the nature of a man and woman—-is shown—by Jesus’s family. The loyalty, the love, the teaching.

            That is the genius of Catholic/orthodox ChristianTheology. They understand that the Laws of Nature do not evolve. Human Nature CAN NOT BE PERFECtED (Marxism). When you mess with nature’s intention (God’s Design)—you warp human beings. When children are raised in harems like the Afghanis—they will have an extremely warped worldview of women and their bodies and “Good”.

            Parents are designed to be responsible for their own genetic offspring and the Christian model is modeled after the Laws of Nature—just like Science and Logic. Great evil always occurs when nature is thwarted—whether by contraception/abortion/out of wedlock births/breaking the commandments— where children will have an irrational concept of Reality—-which is what Marxists want so they can tell children “Slavery is Freedom”, Up is Down and children will have no ability to not believe it.

          • Susan, could you answer me this question? Why is it that you can detect fairy tales with complete certainty when those fairy tales come from other faiths, but you cannot detect the fairy tales that underpin your own faith? Why do you believe your chosen fairy tale with unrelenting passion and reject the others as nonsense?

          • Yes—Bob—-YOU believe in “fairy” tales—I don’t. I believe in Science and Truth—in the Laws of Nature—where Science originates—you know—Cause and Effect. Do you know what the anal cavity is for????? Check with the Proctologist—and what happens to the anal cavity in homosexuals….It is really creepy/filthy/deadly.

            Sodomy has been listed as a Mental Illness–and rightly so—it still should be on the APA list of MI–but the Marxists took it off so they could pervert children and seduce them—since it is a fixation in Latency because of childhood trauma and insecure attachment.

            Destroying Reason and Logic and Morality in children is really evil and damaging to the formation of Worldview. You need to see a psychiatrist, you know.

          • Absolutely the opposite!!!!!! It was Jesus Christ who created the greatest Revolution in the history of the world and the most radical idea in the history of man—-that every single person, even the unborn, have dignity and worth—even women. That all humans deserve to be their own master. Individualism was a Christian invention—no “group” salvation, no collective rights from man which was the status quo—the idea that all individuals have dignity and worth given by God—led to the founding of the USA.

            Christianity elevated women and gave them dignity—which grew from monogamy of the Jews. Jesus walked with women, hung out with women/ talked with the lepers, poor, etc. Absolutely revolutionary even for the enlightened Greeks/Romans and the Jews. Christianity removed the idea that Slavery, Homosexuality/Pederasty, and child sacrifice was “Good”—ideas which were widely practiced at the time by all cultures but the orthodox Jews.

            This CHANGE with Jesus—-was toward Truth, knowing God and understanding his Word. And we have been turning away from “truth” since the Postmodernists killed God in the 1900s. Nietzsche predicted the nihilism and destruction of human rights and cultures. There is only chaos in the West since we have dumped the Supreme Lawgiver—and his Laws. You can see it everywhere. 90% of prisoners didn’t have a father in the home. Warping environments of children is destructive to moral formation when they have no moral role models. All children need moral role models—people who are Virtuous as Socrates and Aristotle stated. Virtue is learned–habituated and without Virtue cultures collapse.

            We have had great “progress” in human interaction and “Freedom”—from centuries of serfdom/feudal systems and slavery. It was the Christians who created “Common Law” (revolutionary) and teh Magna Carta—which couldn’t occur with any other “religion” because individual rights is because of individuals each are responsible for their own salvation.

            The homosexual and feminist movements were taken over by Marxists who wanted to destroy the Natural Family to destroy the next generation—-make emotionally crippled children who would be fixated in immaturity so they would be easy to manipulate and manage—and control by emotion—-for their ACORN mobs or OWS or flash mobs at walmart. Immoral people destroy civil society. Only Virtuous cultures flourish and are safe for children to be like a George Washington or a Gen. Patton…..people of strong character are formed and if they are taught to do evil….they will be evil.

          • Invisible Pink Unicorns are beings of great spiritual power. We know this because they are capable of being invisible and pink at the same time. Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorns is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that they are pink; we logically know that they are invisible because we can’t see them

          • I guess the part that pisses me off is how the church tries to make even the things that Christ meant to be metaphysical, like the last supper when he passed out the bread and wine and ” take and eat of this for this is my body”………………… and the church comes up with this Transubstantiation thing and tries to tell us that the bread actually turns into the flesh of Christ.

            They make the whole thing like Voodoo, and they did not need to. Just trying to live life as Christ would have you live it is enough, because it makes you feel good to be good, and it makes you feel bad when you are bad. The rest is Unnecessary Voodoo.

          • It does sound bizarre, doesn’t it? But so does dying on the cross. It seems non-sensical. But, if you spend decades studying philosophy and theology—the brilliant thinking from St. Augustine to St. Pius X—-you will see that they have argued to death–all your points. For centuries. It is nothing new. You are talking about God–who we can never fully comprehend until death. So, religious ideas in Catholicism are argued—and rationalized by using the words in the Bible and actions of Jesus. It is the most perfect way to the ‘Truth” I can think of—Reason and Faith.

            Voodoo is totally irrational. Catholic Theology is extremely rational—because of St. Thomas Aquinas baptizing Aristotle. Aristotle is the Father of Logic. St. Augustine had used Platonic dialectics to find “truth”–in arguing all the words in the Bible. St. Thomas added Aristotle’a Logic and used Logical Syllogisms for the Catholic Canon.

            The Trinity is a concept that is beyond human conception—much harder concept to take on faith than “Transubstantiation”. Why wouldn’t this also be possible for God?

            Anyhow, I have taken many classes on Christian Theology and Catholic Theology and all religions take faith. But actually—-every aspect of life takes “faith”. I just go with the most rational, proven method to live life.

            It is just “Common Sense” of the Reidian type.

            Feeling bad when you do evil is essential to Virtue (Excellence). Aristotle stated that habituating people into correct actions—is not enough—-you have to match the actions with the emotion. In other words, people had to “feel” good about doing “good”. and “feel” bad about doing “evil”. Otherwise, they could not be much incentive to be virtuous. Virtue is necessary for Freedom—-respect for others and flourishing cultures.

            Wisdom is being able to discern “Good and Evil” (Socrates). That is profound. Good used to be understood prior to the 60’s—people understood killing babies and the old (abortion/euthanasia) are evil—along with removing all morality from the sex act (homosexuality). To remove morality from sex, you will collapse culture (Freud). Releasing the passions—is very dangerous to the next generation—you use people as objects for lust—it destroys worldview of the children.

            Destroying Wisdom is what our media and schools have been doing for 100 years— since John Dewey—-blurring Good and Evil in our children, filling heads with much—no John Adams, Adam Smith and John Locke or the Bible. They give misinformation/lies and glorify vice. now—something that was rare in our culture prior to the 60’s. Toxic Cultures (like the Weimar Republic) collapses cultures/freedom.

          • Wrong again.

            John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”

            Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

          • The big difference between science and religion is that science is a tool focused on assessing the validity of its propositions. Religion has absolutely no way to test any of its ideas, and its proponents seem to like it that way it gives them free rein to promote imagination over evidence and revelation over experiment

          • You are not using Logic. Religion is knowing “Cause and Effect” which is exactly the ONLY reason Science can exist . Laws of Nature! If there was no ability to “predict” (because of the Laws of Nature) you would have absolutely NO possibility of any type of Science. There would be NO design in nature—therefore–no logic.

            Laws of Nature pretty much guarantees a Lawgiver. Same with the fine tuning and systems in the universe—it is only “LOGICAL” that there is an all-powerful Designer who had no beginning. Nothing else is plausible—and Atheism–where the universe came from nothing or alien seeding is laughable. There is much more Logic in Christianity and you can prove with more than the Bible that the cities, events and people which are written about—actually lived. There is proof. The atheists have tried to disprove the Bible for centuries—and instead they find it is true as they find the city of Jericho or Sodom and the ruins which declare that there was a possibility which is explained completely in the Bible.

            Only the Christian Religion is exactly the same as Science. It created the concept of Science and the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment. Those events couldn’t happen without a Religion that believed in Objective Truth and Individual Rights from God and dignity in ALL human beings. Christianity is debated and argued over centuries to find “Truth” just like science—it is why we had the schism—observing Nature, experiences and seeing what works and people rebelling from the “rules” of God (too hard to follow)—-and Christians find out that the Word of God and Jesus is ALWAYS CORRECT—in how to find true happiness and meaning in life. Works every time. My years have proven—when I follow the 10 Commandments I have much happiness and true friendship and true love. Everyone who steals and cheats and lusts are miserable in the end. They are happy for a few minutes —and have no worthwhile friendships and just surrounded by sycophants who use them, who pull them into the sewer and misery. Life with no meaning. Worthless.

            “Laws” which will make human beings productive and powerful and unified and GOOD—is what works.
            Socrates even said that without Virtue there can be no freedom.

            ……although people can not really attain perfection (which Marx thinks they can be perfected–of course with the state putting all the ideas into the heads of your children–destroying the Natural Family so weird loyalties and godly love can’t warp children to believe in uniqueness and individuality and Truth and Love)., not only have meaning here on earth—and “eternal life” which is the only “faith” part which exists in ALL people.

            To say a person does NOT have faith is saying that person has complete knowledge of everything—-which is an impossibility. Everyone has “Faith”. Christians have faith in a God and God’s Laws—Atheists have Faith in materialism and man-made-up laws which are made by the people in power. To force their “laws” which are based on their selfish “feelings” and desires—they form a fascist society where there can be no freedom. They corrupt Law to be Rule of Man and eliminate the Rule of Law (American Jurisprudence) based on Objective Truth and a Higher Power than man.

          • No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.

            The crucifixion story of Jesus Christ is mythical, based on pagan religions, and makes no sense:There is a complete absence of evidence for the events described – no authors mention the phenomenal events that supposedly occurred at the time of Jesus’ resurrection, and, there are no records of Jesus being crucified in the first place. This is despite there being multiple historians of the time who kept extensive records of events in that era, especially of unusual events and the misdeeds of rulers. The only records we have are those written by Christians themselves, the Gospels. And within each of those gospels nearly all details of the crucifixion and resurrection are different. Very important details, such as Jesus’ last words, are so different that it appears they are simply being made up by the authors. The earliest Christians did not know simple details such as where Jesus was buried.

          • So “YOU” say. Ha ha—you are a “historian” now, maybe, or an anthropologist???? Crucifixions were common in 32 AD—so it is highly likely…..and there are many historians and philosophers and Physicists and Theologians who believe Jesus DID exist and we know for a fact that all the places really existed—even when there was no trace of the places for thousands of years until excavation. Funny how the Bible is found to be correct in geography and facts of the Caesars/Nero/Pilate and at the exact ages that Jesus was supposed to be. But I digress—-there are people who have studied and proven more than I would ever know—and I don’t pretend to be an expert on the Bible—I am a Catholic after all, and trust the Catholic Canon.

            How many decades did you put into your “investigations”? There are many who have spent 50 years or more, traveled to the Holy Land, and would disagree with you. I rest my case.

          • That is easy—–Irrational Marxism. BTW, Progressives are Marxist and their ideology is really “Regressive”—back to paganism/occultism where the masses are serfs/slaves of the few elites who decide what can be done and thought. Sodomy worship used to also be common in all pagan worlds—which always included pederasty, which still exists as “Good” in Saudi and Afghani nations. Christianity removed sodomy as “Good” and made pedophilia evil. Since it is a learned worldview—pederasty always exists in a sodomite culture like the Samurai.

            Marxism is the Big Lie. There is no concept of “Truth/God” in Marxist ideology and its “radical egalitarianism” is the ultimate irrational thinking—total removal of Common Sense. (Natural aristocracy was embraced by the founders (Common Sense)—since all people are unique with unique qualities and are not the same—-which makes culture possible and flourishing.
            Hierarchy exists in all animals—and without it you have chaos and Roles of male and female are essential and the modeling needed for emotional healthy (humanized) children who grow up to have character and know how to relate to ALL people in healthy ways since they had healthy, natural role models. 90% of criminals had no father figure. Marxism calls for the destruction of the Natural Family—and the State becomes the parent.

            Think how well dogs and cats “act” when removed in their formative weeks from their “mother”. They are never “normal”.

            Marxism dehumanizes every single person–since it removes all identity and individual characteristics that make humans unique, like male or female and uniqueness-Marxism destroys efficient and flourishing cultures, since merit is never allowed—- the best and brightest to rise to the top. Marxism pulls them down to the lowest common denominator—to be the same—since the lowest are incapable of rising to the top. Can’t have inequality!!!!!!!!!!!

            Even the Atheist Ayn Rand stated that Common Sense (actually Laws of Nature (cause and effect understanding)

    • Being irrational and sexist is what homosexuality is all about. Hating the opposite sex is idolatry and narcissism and is a rejection of true diversity.

      All sodomite cultures, like the Afghanis today and the Samurai of yesterday, prefer boys for sex, since it is a learned behavior and the emotions are fixated to that immature age of Latency when the child was warped with the sick ideas that were imprinted on their minds by being physically abused like the harem boys—and by severe emotional damage.

      It is mental illness—this irrational attraction to anal cavities is not only vile and sick—-it is unnatural—unscientific—–and a disturbed learned “emotion” which is so vile and irrational it is totally dehumanizing and defies Biology (Science, Reason).

      • “Hating the opposite sex”???????? Just because they don’t prefer them doesn’t mean they hate them. Thats not Gay, That’s Feminist. LOL I have never met a gay person who hated anybody, but I’ve met a hell of a lot of so called “religious” people that swim in it.

        How the hell is it Idolatry? Take it easy on me now, remember, I’m ignorant, as you say.

        • Your ignorance is showing. You don’t understand ideology/Theology. Modern feminism was founded by Betty Friedan–a hard-core Marxist who hated men. Feminism destroys the Natural Family (Biology (Natural Laws/Reason) removed. Feminists hate their own body—the way God designed them. They hate Laws of Nature and the maternal instinct in women—that has to be annihilated—why the promotion of killing one’s own biological offspring and forcing women outside the home and demonizing motherhood–to destroy nurture in girls. They promote combat for women—for radical egalitarianism–to destroy the idea that women and men are different and designed differently—for different roles—to make the most efficient flourishing cultures. All animals are designed to play a “role” in their group—like in a wolf pack.

          “I woke up one morning thinking about wolves and realized that wolf packs function as families. Everyone has a role, and if you act within the parameters of your role, the whole pack succeeds, and when that falls apart, so does the pack.” J Picoult

          Cultural Marxists designed a way to collapse Western Culture—destroy the Natural Family (promoting Vice and no fault divorce/Lenin invention) and Christianity (promoting Vice and dependency/Welfare)–the two pillars of Western Civ.

          Homosexual movement was founded by that raped Harry Hay—when he was 11 or so by a Navy man—and he loved it. He was big into Man/Boy “Love”—there is that unnatural irrational “thinking”—that sodomizing others —that fixation on an anal cavity is Reasoned—and Natural.

          The Afghanis—who have the harems of boys—teach them to hate women. Have you ever seen the pictures of the women who have acid poured on their face????or their noses cut off–I have. It is a worldview—they sodomize the little boys—exactly like the Samurai did—and women are used for breeding and treated like chattel (hated). Same with the Spartans and the Brownshirts. Hitler’s Brownshirts were so vile to women and children—they used the Hitler Youth in their orgies.

          All homosexuals hate God—they hate God’s Design of the body—they know they are misusing their body—which is obvious by the plumbing and facts of life (Reason). They reject Reason and Morality. When you hate God—you hate all people. Sodomizing others is not only dehumanization of oneself—it is dehumanizing of the person you do such vile acts on. It is all about hating—using other people as a means to an end. Objectifying people is intrinsically evil—but only in true Judeo-Christian Ethics.

          When cultures wanted brutal armies (like what the POS is doing to our military today), they create a homosexual army—like the Samurai/Spartans. Why? Because with their habitual dehumanizing acts upon themselves and others, it removes Virtue—The desensitization makes it easy to kill and mutilate children and women. Our Christian military was the most moral of all armies in the history of the world.

          Machiavelli stated that promoting Virtue is essential for a good/powerful military. Promoting Vice will create a vile, inhumane machine—–like this one. Vice breeds Vice and using one’s body in vile, dehumanizing ways is Vice.

          http://www.thepinkswastika.com/5294/index.html

          http://www.examiner.com/article/afghan-pedophilia-a-way-of-life-say-u-s-soldiers-and-journalists

          • So now Homosexuality is a “Movement” ????????? For a person that has spent a lot of time becoming educated, as you surely have, I am once again, amazed.

        • Idolatry—absolutely. You want to have sex with a copy of yourself.

          When you are traumatized as a child—you are fixated in an immature period of your life—you can’t progress and “mature” without intense help. You remain immature. That is why the sodomized boys in Afghanistan cannot mature and respect “the other” (women)—which is true diversity and maturity. The men grow to desire sex with boys (conditioned in them by trauma) and becomes a normalized worldview for them.

          They are fixated in Latency, when one is immature and boys like boys, and girls like girls better. It is the natural sexual identity development of children—during Latency their sex drive is sublimated because they have to learn and understand their own sexuality by hanging around their own sex—to compete–compare, etc. before they can grow and appreciate the “Other”.

          It comes from the strong “herd instinct” in people. You like the same. Maturity is when you can appreciate the different. Most kids ridicule differences—because they are immature.

          When they reach puberty–they should mature—but if they are sexualized—perverted—warped by being raped like a Chastity Bono—their worldview about their body and its use is warped—and they become twisted by emotional trauma which take over reason. Their emotions will be tied to irrational experiences—which is embedded and cannot be erased—so seeing males will cause sexual excitement if they were sexually used in childhood.

          it is actually operant conditioning—that they tie emotions to acts—and normalize the unnatural.= which is easy to do in young children.

          Homosexuality is an adoration of oneself—the same (Idolatry of one’s own sex—superiority). A rejection of true maturity—when you can grow and learn to appreciate the “other”—those different from oneself.

          • Susan, I know of some very good families that raised their children as well as any family I have been privileged to know over the years. The mom and dad loved each other, they did things with their kids and they went to church every Sunday. They often met and had breakfast after church with other families. Two of the children in these families ended up being Homosexual. I guarantee that these children where not abused as children, and they lived happy, healthy childhood lives.

            Those families have now both had a falling out with the Catholic church over their children. Basically, Blood is thicker than mud, if you get my meaning. These families love their children and they do not see them as abominations, as the church does.

            You might, but their moms and dads dont, and I would be willing to bet that Jesus does not.

            If there is one rule that I hold dear above all others taught by Christ, it is “Judge not Lest ye be Judged”, and if there IS a hell, those that judge will be put on the hottest, biggest, burner that Satan has at his disposal.

          • Homosexuality is a “learned” behavior and a vile unnatural lust for an anal cavity. It is a mental illness–as much as being addicted to heroin. Loving parents would try to “save” their children. If they refuse to quite indulging in dehumanizing behaviors, I would disown them. Vice only breeds vice. The Bible is correct–using the body in such an evil way is an abomination—for men to look at other men and be filled with lust destroys culture, like it did in the Weimar Republic–known for the Vice of Sodomy and vulgar, degrading “entertainment”.

            It destroys the possibility of agape and healthy productive civil societies—the highest form of love, in men should be non-sexual. Virtue is essential for civl society. Sodomizing others is a Vice. Read Fr. Oko’s report on the destruction the homomafia did inside the Catholic Church (Did you read Bella Dodd’s book on the homosexual Marxists who infiltrated the Catholic Church in the 30’s and 40’s to destroy it.)

            I know many “Good” parents—and taught in Montessori schools—where “good” parents treated their little boys like sh(t—and emasculated them in front of their peers and adults. Children can easily be humiliated and warped by many things—not just molestation, although 70% of all homosexuals were sexually molested as children—like Charles Manson and John Gacy at 8 years old—you know, that serial killer who killed all those little boys after he raped them. It is a learned behavior after all—the Samurai and the Afghani harems prove it—besides the twin studies.

            It is funny how you pretend to be “scientific” and searching for the “truth” —and you think “homosexuality” is a normal, natural thing—when all history has proven all behaviors are learned and habituated….as Aristotle taught thousands of years ago. The twin studies prove their is no “gay” gene. You do not understand sexual identity formation in children—but this guy does. Google harem boys in Afghanistan too—they learn real well to hate women.

            http://bioleft.tripod.com/keynes.htm

          • Typical of sodomites—mock religion and mock God’s Design of the human body and throw out
            Reason and Science and Knowledge. Sad. Truth will set you Free—but you have to seek it.

          • Susan you are putting words in my mouth again. I do not think it is “Normal” I just think it is something that happens in a certain percentage of humans, and I do not judge those that exhibit that preference. I really try hard not to judge people, and I try to avoid those that do, because I do not want to judge them. Its hard, because we are taught prejudice at a very young age. I saw this in the military with southerners and blacks. I grew up in NJ and did not harbor prejudice toward blacks. I was beaten unconscious by three southerners for giving a drink of my hot chocolate to a guy I had befriended that just happened to be black. They could not stand the fact that I had used the same cup as a black man. There are some very sick people out there, and not all that much has changed since the 60’s.

          • “Wisdom is discerning Good and Evil.” ( Socrates). This is why Western Civilization flourished over the East. Philosophy of the Greek Masters.

            Postmodernists are flipping Good and Evil, if you haven’t noticed. It used to be very clear—the Laws of Nature and the Good of having people do their Natural Duty of raising and caring for their biological offspring and that Natural Right of children to be raised by their own biological parents which is nature’s best design for the emotional development of a child—to understand both male and female and self (Reality).

            To warp this duty—is to make children into objects for sale—of women’s bodies into objects for breeding.

            It is dehumanizing—EVIL. Using human beings as a “Means to an End”. You are going back to the Christian-less ideology of the Greeks which allowed slavery and child sacrifice—using humans as a “Means”.

            To think homosexual behavior is “Good” is really warped—and evil. Best short apologetics on homosexuality
            I have run across:

  2. Throughout history, when an evil ruler leads his people to accept wicked and corrupt lifestyles that go against the laws of God, the entire nation suffers the consequences. There is a reason why this nation is suffering a fall from His blessings. Just look at the happy face on the evil emperor.

        • Yeah it would be much better to let them have all the kids they want then they can die of hunger and thirst because the ecosystem in which they live cannot support them. I guess they could bring back cannibalism, and mass Blood Sacrifice though.

          I guess you have not read anything on the disaster that the human race will face if people continue to procreate at the current rate huh?

          Intelligent, Well read people know this, and have fewer kids than those that are ignorant. What does that say for the future of the planet?

      • Check you facts again Barbie : More people accepted Christ, and professed their belief in God in China in the last year, than the last 20 years combined. The largest Christian church in the world is now in China, 2nd largest is in South Korea, also a country doing rather well economically. Meanwhile were accumulating more fools like you.

      • Bob, China is doing so well because they do not allow same sex marriage. Plus they have idiots like you that will work
        very very cheap. And they don’t have a Muslim running their Gov.

        • Yoweri Museveni is a “born again Christian” & leader of Uganda where homosexually is illegal & they aren’t doing so well? Michael Sata the Christian leader of Zambia outlawed homosexually & they aren’t doing so well, Porfirio Lobo Sosa the Christian president of Honduras doesn’t allow gay marriage & they aren’t doing so well. So, do ya think their might be another reason???

        • Is that right? and all this time I thought it was because us stupid Americans buy all those ridiculous robotic Santa clauses, Angels, Wise men, and fake Christmas trees with LED lights. And all this time its been because they dont have Gay Marriage…………………………..Well dag-nabbut, ill be durned!

      • China isn’t Christian for one, so this rule doesn’t apply to them. Of course, our nation, technically, isn’t Christian either since our 1st amendment declares “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” Meaning that all religious beliefs are welcome and permitted. Heck, went to school with an individual from Kuwait back in 2005, that after reading the US Constitution in school he realized he had to move to this country because it was clear to him that our forefathers were Muslim. He said that once he moved here and discovered they were not he was in shock because the document so clearly supported mainstream Muslim beliefs.

        The fact is that our Constitution supports general human beliefs that are supported by virtually every mainstream religion on the planet today. Unfortunately, some of our more radical citizens see the extremists of other religions and assume that is how all “those people” are. They ignore the fact that the vast majority of Muslims actually like the US, with the exception of our extreme view on freedom of speech.

        In most countries, hate speech is outlawed, whereas here if you don’t like what someone is saying you should ignore them. Most of the Muslims I know in other countries think if the government doesn’t crack down on it, then it supports it, and when I suggest ignoring them if you don’t like it they do not get it. Such a concept makes no sense and they ask why would you ignore something offensive. I respond, “because it is offensive, I ignore it.” They simply cannot understand that.

  3. I guess the penis fits better in the anus than in the vagina, and this makes for a better union. And I’m sure all the babies will be Democrats.

  4. What a bunch of immoral bass turds. Why do we put up with leaders who promote wickedness? I can’t stand to hear it anymore.

        • Thats not true, Bob is not the only one who does not believe in talking snakes, poison apples, a boat that held all the animals ever made. (Think about the feeding and mucking out the stalls) and cutting the skin off your penis. (Unfortunately, I had nothing to say about that one)

          Now if cutting off a baby boys foreskin and sucking out the blood is not wicked, what would be your definition of that word be?

          How about saying that all babies that are not baptized and die are sent to Limbo?

          How about saying that a brand new beautiful baby is born with a black soul full of ORIGINAL SIN.

          Do you really believe this sheit?

          • History is full of examples of what happens when evil gets out of hand. First, you have to be able to recognize evil in order to stop it. Yes, you and I and everyone on this planet is a sinner. You don’t understand the Bible because you don’t read or study it. If you did, you would be amazed as you learned. No, we don’t understand everything. That’s why it’s called “faith”.

          • If its true, and scientifically proven why do you have to have faith? Do you believe that the earth is 6,000 years old as claimed by most religions, or do you believe in what science and carbon dating tells us. There was nothing more EVIL than the Spanish Inquisition, and it was prompted by Papists. How about the burning of the so called witches in Salem, Massachusetts, because some teenage girls told stories? There are many stories of Jewish tribes completely wiping out other Jewish tribes to the last man woman and child because “God” told them to do so. Has it ever occurred to you that the first printing press was not invented until 1450, so knowledge was basically passed by word of mouth up until then, except for the scrolls written by monks, all of whom embellished the stories as they went along, making the story fit the prophesy?

            Is killing another human wrong? Yes
            Is killing babies wrong? Yes
            Is judging other people wrong? Yes

            Is being Homosexual wrong? No, How can you control what you are ?

            I dont need to read a book to know these things, it comes standard.

          • You must be gay. People don’t like the Bible or the Cross because it makes them confront their own sin. Being gay is not wrong but practicing homosexuality IS wrong according to God’s plan. You don’t have to believe in God but you will not enter the kingdom of heaven and live for eternity until you repent of your sins and believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

          • Shall we blame those men who have killed homosexuals(remember Matthew Sheppard who was killed a couple of years ago, and tied up to a fence post) shall we blame the men who have read Lev. 20:13 “If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death.”? Or should we blame the book in which they read it? Should we put the blame on bigotry or homophobia for the hatred that many people nowadays feel toward homosexuals? Or on the book that instilled that hatred in them?

          • so, there’s no way I can properly understand the bible, because I’m unsaved and don’t have the discernment of the Holy Spirit. So apparently,with eternity in the balance, God has placed his instructions for living into a book that cannot be properly understood by anyone who actually needs the
            information to avoid Hell. Nice

  5. using the words same sex in official documents oopens the door to marrying anything that is the am,e sex and the one wanting to marry. so someone of male sex can marry any thing else that is male. unless it is defined as humans only may marry the same sex, the door is legally open to all kinds of perversion!

  6. All together now can we say that Illinois has screwed up again. First it was the birthplace of organized crime. It was the template for all the corrupt politicians they came down the road. And worst of all They Gave Us Dirty Diaper Head Obama and The First Bimbo. Once his administration is destroyed it will take a decade to remove the spring of the corruption that these people have brought to America.

    Marriage is not just a legal contract is a very basis that holds families together with the founding and biblical teachings. They say it’s about equal rights that is a supreme crock of BS. Civil unions had all legal rights of a normal married couple. The perverts had equal rights under the law. Marriage is based in church and biblical teachings which I might add do not recognize perverts, deviance, and other slime the crawl the surface of the earth.

      • That’s not true civil unions hold as much legally binding legal- BS as any marriage. They take advantage of all the tax credits offered to married couples and exactly how far the civil unions go legally is up to the state. I can imagine in some cases civil unions have an advantage over marriage.

        When’s the last time you’ve heard of the common law civil union? Common-law marriages are quite regularly found in most states.

        The only reason for all this fuss and fight about the word marriage is at the perverts want to be able to justify their actions in the same way as a married couple does in a religious service. In these individuals cannot keep from salivating to the concept of rubbing organized religions nose in the sewer that they inhabit. There’s no justifiable reason for perversion to be mainstreamed into our society.

        I have absolutely no problem with civil unions but I have absolutely no use for same-sex marriage being protected under the law for reasons you may not even be aware of.

        If you use the courts to justify same-sex marriage under the guise of being equal under the law then why can’t you have a marriage of 3 or more people. Or how about a person and a sheep, or person in their favor sexual toy. You take it to the logical conclusion even have a 50-year-old man legally marrying six-year-old boys. And don’t say can happen because there are enough perverts out there that would consider it their legal right to have this type of protection under the law. You have to draw the line someplace where is it going to be someone marrying a corpse I guess that means her children would be zombies right.

      • I think that Gay people should have every right to be just as miserable as most of the straight people I know are. Its just not fair! …………….. To the straight people!

  7. This could have never occurred had the framers established government and society upon Yahweh’s immutable morality as reflected in His commandments, statutes, and judgments (including Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13). Had they done so, there would be no homosexual agenda in America because no sodomite or lesbian would dare risk exposing themselves to petition the government for their rights.

    This speaks volumes to the fact that the Constitution is NOT the Biblical compatible document that, ironically, most Christians believe it is.

      • That is a lie—All abolitionists were devout Christians—in fact the Quakers were protesting slavery in the 1600’s. Many like John Adams and Benjamin Rush were against the evil institution of slavery and knew it was incompatible with our Constitution.

        It just was a universal worldview that slavery was natural and Good—-like sodomizing boys/men—-was normal and natural until the Jews and Christians made it “Evil” since it is so vile and so unnatural that it not only destroys the body—it is a sexist, woman-hating, immature behavior of narcissism and idolatry.

        In a true “Justice” (Virtue) System, the Vice of sodomy can’t be “legal”—-like for thousands of years—-it is a known Vice. It is irrational and vile use of the body parts and is scientifically provable.

          • Slavery was embraced by all peoples—even Africans–who sold their own. They still have slavery and Marxists like you want to impose their slavery and irrationality on us. You do know history, don’t you??? How creepy that a man lusts after another’s anal cavity and the pederasty which is rampant in all sodomite cultures like today’s Afghanistan—that is not “Love” and it is extremely irrational and a vile way at looking at human beings.

            True Christians (not the Jim Wallis fakes) are those abolitionists who made slavery. child sacrifice, and pederasty “evil” and eliminated it in the West. You are a slave to anal cavities. HA HA. Very vile way to look at fellow men….vile and dehumanizing.

          • I am sure you couldn’t recognize “true” fallacies if it smacked you in the face!

            It takes Common Sense and the understanding of the “Laws of Nature”—You know—that little “Cause and Effect” ideology which created the concept of “Science” as we know it—which sodomites obviously reject and want to force into the minds of little children, so they will be as irrational and illogical as Marxists, who think there can be a utopia here on earth—and everyone is interchangeable–they are all exactly the same–you know like termites in a colony–so you can have two men actually “marry”…….such clear “thinking” and destruction of language and traditions—exactly what Marxists want.

            Remove all ideas of the past—so they can shape the minds into their artificial Reality—and make “Happy Slaves” where there is no such concepts as “mother and father”. Very dehumanizing.

          • No—moral relativism is as irrational as Marxism. It is the same. Making up Right and Wrong on urges with no Reason and Logic and understanding of the teleological nature of man and Natural Law is insanity.

            Moral Relativism is impossible, since the belief that there is moral relativism IS AN ABSOLUTE. Therefore, there is Objective Truth.

          • Really? The bible supported slavery, commanded people to kill for various different reasons (working on sunday, non virgin brides, sassy children, etc) The 50,070 who were killed by God for looking into the Ark of the Covenant, the 70,000 innocent men whom God killed because Joseph chose 3 days of pestilence, the hundreds of innocent townspeople murdered by David during his thieving “raids” in Gath, the tens of thousands of children and babies butchered by Moses, Joshua and Saul… and of course, the 42 little children whom God killed for mocking one of his prophets.

          • That is a lie—-the Bible acknowledged slavery existed and said to treat slaves humanely. What is your point anyhow—we still have slavery—-sodomy is a slavery to lust—and all Socialist/Marxist nations create slaves. People on welfare are slaves of the State. Now that I think of it….The Bible is so profound because it realized the depravity of man—and that slavery would always exist as long as people didn’t follow the 10 Commandments and treat others as they would like to be treated.

            Wow…..you prove my point. Sodomites really hate God = are totally angry at God—-and God’s Design of the human body. That is why you have to reduce His creation to animal level–with no soul, no dignity—just animal urges.

            Did it ever occur to you how EVIL man is—how depraved???? How he deserved to be eliminated off the face of the earth? Look around you. Even “nice” people I know are self-absorbed, pretty selfish and greedy, and petty and lazy. We don’t deserve anything from God—nothing—yet, he gave His son, so we could be saved.

            Jesus is an example of complete selflessness. It is only when we are selfless like Jesus that we can truly Love and truly be “Happy”. Try it sometime—-Using others in dehumanizing ways removes dignity from the human being—-you have to think of others with dignity and worth —-that is when you can say you “Love” someone—when you don’t remove their dignity and use them.

            It is easy for me, since I am a mother, to understand that “selflessness” necessary for “true love”. Children need that selflessness to thrive and grow and be human. That coming together to create children is the most beautiful and loving act in the world. God gave us great gifts if we don’t abuse them. When we misuse our bodies, all chaos and evil occur.

    • It should have never occurred because in a “Justice” (Virtue) system—Laws are supposed to be “Right Reason” and promote “Virtue” since Justice is the Queen of Virtue in Western Civilization—-Laws are supposed to be rational to be Just—as Cicero stated–and there is nothing rational about two men sodomizing each other. It has been a Vice for thousands of years for good “reason” and it is still irrational and a vice.

      If a Law is “Just” it promotes Virtue—-since Justice is a Virtue and a Justice System has to promote Virtuous Law. (When Law ceases to be just, it ceases to be Law—St. Thomas Aquinas). Nuremberg Trials reiterated St. Thomas’s Thinking and Logic.

      A Justice System is based on Ethics—and ours is based on Natural Laws and God’s Laws—as stated in our Declaration. It has always been Christian Ethics which determined Good and Evil.

      Now we have muslim ethics and Atheist/pagan/Satanic Ethics—-all are sodomite loving cultures where Truth/Biology/Science is ignored.

      • Susan, thank you for responding.

        Neither the Judicial branch, nor the other two branches of the Constitutional Republic are based upon Yahweh’s triune moral law (His commandments, statutes, and judgments). There is is hardly an article or amendment that, in some fashion, is not antithetical, if not seditious, to Yahweh’s sovereignty and morality. Please consider the following:

        “…The Bible stipulates, among other things, that judicial appointees must be men of truth who fear Yahweh and hate covetousness. (See Chapter 5 “Article 2: Executive Usurpation” for a list of additional Biblical qualifications.) The United States Constitution requires no Biblical qualifications whatsoever. Nowhere does the Constitution stipulate that judges must rule on behalf of Yahweh, rendering decisions based upon His
        commandments, statutes, and judgments as required in Exodus 18 [In fact, this was outlawed when in Article 6, the framers banned Christian tests and with them such Biblical qualifications]. That
        not even one constitutional framer contended for Yahweh, as did King Jehoshaphat, speaks volumes about the framers’ disregard for Him and His judicial system:

        ‘And he [King Jehoshaphat] set judges in the land throughout all the fenced cities of Judah, city by city, and said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for YHWH, who is with you in the judgment…. And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of YHWH, faithfully, and with a perfect heart.’ (2 Chronicles 19:5-9)….”

        For more, see see online Chapter 6 “Article 3: Judicial Usurpation” of “Bible Law vs. the United States Constitution: The Christian Perspective.” Click on my name, then our website. Go to our Online Books page, click on the top entry, and scroll down to Chapter 6.

      • Question. Why do you religious people associate Justice with religion, when what supposedly happened to Jesus had nothing to do with what any sane man would consider justice?

        How is religion different from “We got the gold, so we make the rules” on steroids?

        • Because Christianity is the most Reasoned religion on the face of the earth. It is the most rational—mainly because of the Stoics who preceded the Christians–and because of the philosophy of the Greek Masters who profoundly influenced Logic and Reason in Western Civilization and created the Stoics.

          Justice is the Queen of Virtue (Socrates). The Cardinal Virtues are Justice, Wisdom, Fortitude, and Temperance, Catholics added the three Theological Virtues to these: Faith, Hope and Charity (Love).

          The Stoics adopted the Nicomachean Ethics (Virtues of Aristotle) and the Stoics were the bridge to Christianity. Christians, like St. Augustine, were Platonists and St. Thomas A. was an Aristotelian. They agreed with the Classical Thinkers in many ways—and realized pagans could not know Jesus Christ in their time. But, Catholic Theologians knew that God puts “truth” into the hearts of all men—so they can know Him–just by observing nature.

          Aristotle is the Father of Logic. He used syllogism–a scientific way to analyze facts. St. Thomas adopted the use of Logic—his whole Summa is made up of Logical syllogism—he is the Father of Catholic Theology. Logic was used to determine what God meant by the Words in the Bible. They took a fine tooth comb through it…for centuries, brilliant men argued and created the University system (Scholastic period) because of “Logic and Reason”.

          There is no other religion which comes close to the brilliance of arguments on Justice, Truth, etc. which was done in the monasteries and the Universities during the Scholastic period. Read Boethius/Anselm, I could list 50 people whom would blow your mind—literally, they are so profound.

          The idea in Christianity is that God is the superlative of all Virtues—he is the most “Just”—he is Love—he is the most wise, etc. He is perfect—that perfection which Christians strive for—-reach to the highest level—it is what created the Renaissance Art—and the Cathedrals–like in the Pillars book— it is what all Christians strive for—perfection—Virtue—to be like Christ (and obey the Commandments). That is if they are true Christians. It is extremely hard to be a “good” Christian and takes sacrifice.

          That concept—about what is “Justice” started in earnest with Socrates. He created dialectical methods to reach the most plausible explanation of “What is Justice?”. His concept still stands today—it is how wise Socrates was and how his ideology still holds today. The Greek Masters are why Western Civilization flourish—far exceeded the East where Chinese still thought the earth was flat in the 1800s. The Ancient Greeks knew the earth was round and the universe vast because of Logic/Wisdom/Reason. They perfected it.

          Christianity extended “Justice” to all human beings on earth and we must teach Virtue (Justice) to children. Socrates stated that the only reason for education was to teach Virtue. That Wisdom is discerning between Good and Evil. That Knowledge is Virtue and that Ignorance is Vice. You probably can’t begin to understand how profound that “thinking” is…..it is critical thinking which people who graduate from university now—can’t even fathom.

          Read Bloom’s book, The Closing of the American Mind which was written in the mid-80’s. That got me out of Plato’s Cave. I had to read it three times—but I am profoundly grateful. Plato stated—very few would be able to escape the cave.

          Philosophy was founded by the Ancient Greeks—that words have meanings–and you can build on ideas—perfect ideas with debate and experiences—and observation. They created “Natural Law Theory”—the idea that all life had teleological ends—a design—and with natural, normal environment—x would happen—if flourishing occurred.

          • Christians have for the last 1700 years tried to violently force, with every means possible, their bizarre beliefs upon everyone else.

    • Yeah and then we would have had a theocratic government like “The Islamic Republic (Not) of Pakistan” with the wonderful benefits afforded by Islam

      All I can say is THANK THE UNIVERSE AND BEYOND FOR BENJAMIN FRANKLIN!

  8. This is exactly why the GOP keeps losing elections. Tea Party approval ratings were sky high when they were simply concentrated on fiscal conservatism and not social issues.

    By comparing gay marriage to bestiality and paedophilia, you just make yourself look like a crank.

  9. Ezekiel 7.27 The king shall mourn, and the prince shall be clothed with desolation, and the hands of the people of the land shall be troubled: I will do unto them after their way, and according to their deserts will I judge them; and they shall know that I am יהוה (Yahweh.)

  10. Am I the only one that sees this as an offer to contract, which can be refused for cause? Two people, regardless of gender, can declare their themselves joined and separate from the rest of the sheep. There is NO need for the “Marriage Certificate (Bonded Monetary doc) from the municipal corporation masquerading as governing authority. Those wanting the independent way of Matrimony must study it. It’s on the internet and available.
    For and on the record: For this Living-Vessel is with the status of the Faith of the Romans-~10:9-Believer-in-Christ.

  11. Of course, if we believe a witness to Obama’s life before he used the name Barrack Hussein Obama, and was simply Barry Soetoro, a Homosexual lover of older whiteys, and drug addict, then to push homosexuality as “Equal Rights” on the people of the USA, is quite a normal deviation for a sexually deviated immoral and unethical politician whose TRUE identity mat be hidden in the mists of time… BUT (pun intended) – “Gay rights” does not stop at “RIGHTS” such as normal HUMAN RIGHTS, – and while the UN does not recognise “Gay Rights” in the same sense as “HMAN RIGHTS”. and historically (just look over the Canada border) sexual deviates only want laws to protect them – so that they can then use such a stepping stone to make new laws enacted, which will eventually lead to MALE RAPE as allowable diversions. CRAZY? – It happened in SODOM and Gomorrah, and is happening, or PLANNED ahead by the International Gay Rights Movement. – And ordinary folks are ALREADY being targeted by these foul demonic parasites, and who now protects the NORMAL people? (NORMAL being the majority = which can change direction (again a pun) if the majority are forced to kowtow to sexual deviation, and then the normal will be the majority who are forced to behave like gays…. think that through.

  12. How do gay people think they were created? By same sex marriage? This only proves that people who decide to be gay are mentally unstable. God does not approve of same sex activity. He is the creator and believes we should create life not kill it off. Gay people don’t think about what would happen if we stopped populating the earth. That would be the end of the human race. I think gay people need mental health help and I pray for them to see its nothing but a distructive life choice.

    • Did you ever consider the possibility that this might be Mother Natures way of controlling the runaway overpopulation of planet earth? She’s pretty darn smart you know……… Or God Forbid………..The Big Kahunas Idea ??????????

    • Maybe they can educate. Educate our young not to call people Fags, niggers, kikes, and things like you do, then we will have a better world, once you die.

    • The toxic fairy tale of religion is dying, and it can’t come too soon. Someday sick,demented, hateful pukebags like you will only exist in history books

  13. There is NO such thing as marriage equality. A faggy marriage will NEVER like that as nature intended: one man and one woman.

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